Student Involvement in Web Content Creation

We had a smaller turn out than normal today, however, we had enough interest that we did have some discussion.  However, we dropped the normal formalities we’ve used in the past and bypassed the agenda, and simply had a free form, open discussion that took place mostly organically.  What follows is the transcript from that discussion.

[2008-04-01 13:13:24] <Quicksilver[rt]> I’ll forgo the formalities
[2008-04-01 13:13:52] <Quicksilver[rt]> We’ll just go free form, and let people join in as they like.
[2008-04-01 13:15:21] <Quicksilver[rt]> So
[2008-04-01 13:15:25] <Quicksilver[rt]> Students and content.
[2008-04-01 13:15:34] <Quicksilver[rt]> I’ll give you some of our background.
[2008-04-01 13:16:05] <Quicksilver[rt]> We usually have one student that assists John and I. Doing mostly grunt work (template transitions, content migration, link fixing, etc)
[2008-04-01 13:16:13] <Quicksilver[rt]> They do not make anything though.
[2008-04-01 13:16:30] <Quicksilver[rt]> We do have a lot of student webmasters around campus though that do tasks for their departments
[2008-04-01 13:16:41] <xx-CEAS-xx[rt]> (that’s what I am)
[2008-04-01 13:16:48] <Quicksilver[rt]> The Student Center is a big one. Their student webmasters handles most everything.
[2008-04-01 13:17:27] –>| catfredo (n=webedito@ucmerced030-186.ucmerced.edu) has joined #uwebd
[2008-04-01 13:17:41] <Quicksilver[rt]> (welcome, jump on it, we’re just having a free form discussion)
[2008-04-01 13:17:51] <Quicksilver[rt]> (it = in)
[2008-04-01 13:17:53] <catfredo> alright, thx.
[2008-04-01 13:18:06] <Quicksilver[rt]> Generally, students don’t write anything we use though.
[2008-04-01 13:18:16] =-= bsteere is now known as bsteere[rt]
[2008-04-01 13:18:19] <Quicksilver[rt]> In fact, all the top layer of the site from now on will be marketing controlled.
[2008-04-01 13:18:44] <Quicksilver[rt]> Others?
[2008-04-01 13:20:21] <catfredo> We have a student intern (rotating) who has the ability to author a weekly podcast segment (edited by one of our PIOs). – UC Merced
[2008-04-01 13:20:43] <catfredo> We started doing that at the beginning of last ac. year.
[2008-04-01 13:20:55] <Quicksilver[rt]> What kind of topics?
[2008-04-01 13:21:38] <catfredo> Mainly of student concern – regulations on music downloads, raising cost of textbooks, etc.
[2008-04-01 13:22:09] <Quicksilver[rt]> Do they come up with it, and you approve it, or do you just assign something to them?
[2008-04-01 13:22:20] <catfredo> The student we hired this year either isn’t that interested (despite a heavy background) or doesn’t have the time (freshman).
[2008-04-01 13:22:21] <bsteere[rt]> Our marketing people are (semi) responsible for all official content (anything that shows up on cornellcollege.edu)
[2008-04-01 13:22:34] <bsteere[rt]> Students don’t do any writing that I know of…just grunt work
[2008-04-01 13:24:05] <asu[rt]> we have a few students who help maintain sites around campus, but mainly it’s just fac staff
[2008-04-01 13:24:05] <catfredo> I apologize if you all covered this already (or if I’m forefront on the stage…), but what about graphics contributions on sites?
[2008-04-01 13:24:24] <Quicksilver[rt]> We’ve never had students doing anything graphic related.
[2008-04-01 13:24:39] <Quicksilver[rt]> Though I’m pushing to allow some student videography type stuff
[2008-04-01 13:24:49] <Quicksilver[rt]> Send them out with a flip camera
[2008-04-01 13:25:02] <bsteere[rt]> Same here…never had any (that I know of).
[2008-04-01 13:25:02] <Quicksilver[rt]> But that’s a pipe dream at the moment.
[2008-04-01 13:25:32] <asu[rt]> we do have a number of students who work in our multimedia lab and one of their responsibilities is to handle website requests
[2008-04-01 13:26:02] <asu[rt]> mainly formatting type stuff
[2008-04-01 13:26:06] <catfredo> I’m sending my video assistant out with a Panasonic HD camera I just purchased. Good for capturing event footage, especially.
[2008-04-01 13:26:22] <catfredo> The other assistants help w/Web templates.
[2008-04-01 13:26:43] <catfredo> lucky me..
[2008-04-01 13:26:46] <Quicksilver[rt]> What about students not directly under your control, ie in other offices/departments. Do you just allow the office to make the call on how trusted the student is, or do you require some kind of oversight on your end?
[2008-04-01 13:27:14] <bsteere[rt]> Generally we let them do what they want
[2008-04-01 13:27:23] <asu[rt]> we allow departments to enlist student help
[2008-04-01 13:27:26] <bsteere[rt]> And the marketing people handle anything they don’t like
[2008-04-01 13:27:45] <asu[rt]> but we hesitate sometimes due to the transient nature of students
[2008-04-01 13:27:58] <catfredo> I agree. As Web Editor, I keep an eye out on departmental content, but they decide how and why to hire.
[2008-04-01 13:28:19] <Quicksilver[rt]> What kind of turnover do you see, generally.
[2008-04-01 13:29:06] <catfredo> It depends on the students’ schedules.
[2008-04-01 13:29:08] <bsteere[rt]> In students or content?
[2008-04-01 13:29:12] <Quicksilver[rt]> Students
[2008-04-01 13:29:31] <Quicksilver[rt]> Are you rehiring every semester, or do they tend to stick around.
[2008-04-01 13:29:34] <catfredo> We had one return after taking the semester off, due a particularly hard class load.
[2008-04-01 13:29:46] <bsteere[rt]> Ours usually stay out a year or more
[2008-04-01 13:29:48] <Quicksilver[rt]> We had a good one, very reliable and sharp, then they vanished one day after a couple years.
[2008-04-01 13:30:03] <catfredo> Too bad. Generally, we have two or three.
[2008-04-01 13:30:06] <bsteere[rt]> They work more or less each block depending on their course
[2008-04-01 13:30:34] <Quicksilver[rt]> Do you find that you have to train them usually, or do you get them pretty well learned.
[2008-04-01 13:30:43] <bsteere[rt]> We have to train
[2008-04-01 13:30:56] <catfredo> Training always, but some less than others.
[2008-04-01 13:31:33] <catfredo> Do you find that students are excited to do Web work? Do you have a lot of applicants?
[2008-04-01 13:31:46] <bsteere[rt]> Not usually a lot
[2008-04-01 13:31:56] <bsteere[rt]> That varies pretty widely year to year
[2008-04-01 13:31:58] <Quicksilver[rt]> Our last one loved it. But finding a good replacement is hard.
[2008-04-01 13:32:13] * bsteere[rt] started out as a student
[2008-04-01 13:32:15] <Quicksilver[rt]> We had a referral from the technical writing department that looks promising
[2008-04-01 13:32:31] <Quicksilver[rt]> Technical Writing has actually been a good source for us.
[2008-04-01 13:32:52] <catfredo> It seems like many departments are hiring multimedia students now, so the competition is on.
[2008-04-01 13:32:53] <bsteere[rt]> Mostly we pick people at random based on a questionnaire they fill out before their freshman year
[2008-04-01 13:32:59] <bsteere[rt]> Sometimes we get lucky
[2008-04-01 13:33:08] <asu[rt]> some of our multimedia students enjoy web more than others so we assign jobs to the appropriate ones
[2008-04-01 13:33:17] <bsteere[rt]> Also, we hire students for the summer and usually one or more will stay on for the following year
[2008-04-01 13:33:31] <catfredo> Good idea. We tried tabling at Orientation this year.
[2008-04-01 13:34:01] <catfredo> That’s where we found our (absent) podcasting student.
[2008-04-01 13:34:24] <catfredo> What do you look for in an interview?
[2008-04-01 13:34:43] <bsteere[rt]> Mostly just basic knowledge
[2008-04-01 13:34:49] <catfredo> Do they ever bring samples of their work?
[2008-04-01 13:35:15] <bsteere[rt]> If they have the basic skills we are looking for, then they have a good chance at the position.
[2008-04-01 13:35:32] <bsteere[rt]> We’ve never tried for multimedia types, so we don’t usually see samples
[2008-04-01 13:36:01] <Quicksilver[rt]> Same. We’ve never had more than one student, so we try to just hit a balance.
[2008-04-01 13:36:17] <asu[rt]> most of ours started out as only lab assistants and have shown interest and abilities through that job
[2008-04-01 13:37:23] <Quicksilver[rt]> Are you happy with the number you have?
[2008-04-01 13:37:30] <Quicksilver[rt]> Would you want more? Less?
[2008-04-01 13:37:55] <catfredo> We are interviewing for another tomorrow. More is not always better though…
[2008-04-01 13:38:16] <catfredo> It would be better if we could hire one more staff person…
[2008-04-01 13:38:27] <asu[rt]> agree.
[2008-04-01 13:38:30] <bsteere[rt]> We have 3 students right now which works pretty well for us. We don’t always have things for them to do, but they can always run through tutorials and such
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[2008-04-01 13:39:49] <Quicksilver[rt]> Here’s a bit of a tangent
[2008-04-01 13:40:02] <Quicksilver[rt]> But do you use any student programmers for app development?
[2008-04-01 13:40:10] <bsteere[rt]> We have
[2008-04-01 13:40:17] <bsteere[rt]> Depends on the skill of the students we have
[2008-04-01 13:40:23] <bsteere[rt]> and the sensitivity of the information
[2008-04-01 13:40:38] <asu[rt]> no that’s all handled by staff
[2008-04-01 13:41:07] <catfredo> If you call YouTube app work, I assigned one student to uploading our footage.
[2008-04-01 13:41:47] <catfredo> “grunt work”
[2008-04-01 13:42:03] <catfredo> Anything that requires logging into the Web server, I do.
[2008-04-01 13:42:55] <catfredo> No offense to the students, of course. It’s just for security.
[2008-04-01 13:43:03] <Quicksilver[rt]> Of course.
[2008-04-01 13:43:24] <Quicksilver[rt]> So it seems safe to say that students generally aren’t trusted for any kind of writing, for the most part.
[2008-04-01 13:44:02] <bsteere[rt]> Generally
[2008-04-01 13:44:14] <Quicksilver[rt]> But we love them for grunt work
[2008-04-01 13:45:54] <Quicksilver[rt]> Are you all the ones normally responsible for them, or is it someone else in your office?
[2008-04-01 13:47:24] <catfredo> My associate, the graphic artist, and I oversee the “Student Web/Graphics Assistants” (the tag-team style works).
[2008-04-01 13:47:51] <catfredo> I oversee the video assistant.
[2008-04-01 13:48:09] <catfredo> My supervisor reviews the hours.
[2008-04-01 13:48:11] <asu[rt]> my coworker oversees the students
[2008-04-01 13:48:20] <bsteere[rt]> My boss is technically responsible…but he lets me assign tasks
[2008-04-01 13:48:33] <Quicksilver[rt]> Are they limited to a certain number of hours?
[2008-04-01 13:48:38] <asu[rt]> but she sends them to me for technical questions
[2008-04-01 13:49:01] <catfredo> 18 hours max. (one or more jobs)
[2008-04-01 13:49:08] <bsteere[rt]> They are work study, so they are limited by the hours they are allotted
[2008-04-01 13:49:14] <bsteere[rt]> which they can use up as fast as they like
[2008-04-01 13:50:30] <bsteere[rt]> Summer workers are just under full time (to avoid benefits)
[2008-04-01 13:51:11] <Quicksilver[rt]> Sounds similar here as well.
[2008-04-01 13:51:42] <catfredo> yep
[2008-04-01 13:51:57] <catfredo> Did anyone talk about blogs yet?
[2008-04-01 13:52:08] <bsteere[rt]> Don’t think so
[2008-04-01 13:52:13] <catfredo> Anyone doing them?
[2008-04-01 13:52:13] <bsteere[rt]> What about them?
[2008-04-01 13:52:19] <bsteere[rt]> Yep
[2008-04-01 13:52:20] <xx-CEAS-xx[rt]> we don’t have blogs
[2008-04-01 13:52:26] <bsteere[rt]> though students don’t really know about it
[2008-04-01 13:52:26] <xx-CEAS-xx[rt]> we might be getting some soon tho
[2008-04-01 13:52:32] <Quicksilver[rt]> Admissions has a couple student blogs on Blogspot.
[2008-04-01 13:52:40] <Quicksilver[rt]> But that’s completely their deal.
[2008-04-01 13:52:56] <Quicksilver[rt]> Though I plan on getting them migrated into the CMS once we’re ready to launch.
[2008-04-01 13:53:09] <bsteere[rt]> We have a few faculty sponsored blogs (Internships, Admissions, etc), but anybody can create their own if they want
[2008-04-01 13:53:14] <catfredo> I’ll check it out. I’d like to hear how easy/hard it is to set one up, start-to-finish.
[2008-04-01 13:53:29] <bsteere[rt]> I imagine it depends on the system
[2008-04-01 13:53:41] <catfredo> It seems participation would be harder than the tech scope.
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[2008-04-01 13:53:57] <bsteere[rt]> We use WordPress-MU which is pretty simple to setup and connect to Active Directory
[2008-04-01 13:54:19] <Quicksilver[rt]> Yeah, WPMU is pretty nice.
[2008-04-01 13:54:22] <catfredo> Yeah, that sounds stable… and free.
[2008-04-01 13:54:24] <bsteere[rt]> I don’t think we really expect students to use them on any kind of large scale
[2008-04-01 13:54:27] <Quicksilver[rt]> And students can usually jump right in.
[2008-04-01 13:54:32] <bsteere[rt]> Yep…free it is
[2008-04-01 13:54:46] <bsteere[rt]> Plugins can be a bit tricky
[2008-04-01 13:54:48] <Quicksilver[rt]> (I suspect WPMU will be getting updated shortly as well, to the 2.5 codebase)
[2008-04-01 13:54:53] <bsteere[rt]> I hope so
[2008-04-01 13:55:06] <catfredo> hmmm.
[2008-04-01 13:55:17] <bsteere[rt]> I wish I had done the SVN install for that (instead of the manual)
[2008-04-01 13:55:30] <catfredo> Ah..
[2008-04-01 13:56:14] <Quicksilver[rt]> Students blogs appear to be a big upcoming thing.
[2008-04-01 13:56:16] <bsteere[rt]> We modified ours to be completely over ssl which makes upgrading a bit more challenging
[2008-04-01 13:56:22] <Quicksilver[rt]> The question then is, who manages them.
[2008-04-01 13:56:35] <catfredo> What have you heard about paid v. unpaid help from students based on a certain number of posts?
[2008-04-01 13:57:04] <Quicksilver[rt]> Some schools are doing things like giving them a digital camera or something in exchange for X posts a week.
[2008-04-01 13:57:22] <bsteere[rt]> Nice…we don’t do anything like that
[2008-04-01 13:57:41] <catfredo> That’s an idea. I just want to know there will be some commitment. Our podcast plan went south due to that.
[2008-04-01 13:58:19] <Quicksilver[rt]> Sign up kids like student ambassadors
[2008-04-01 13:58:47] <Quicksilver[rt]> Or kids who might be student employees in Admissions or Marketing.
[2008-04-01 13:59:11] <Quicksilver[rt]> Ones who are a little more engaged with promoting the college than a random walk in applicant.
[2008-04-01 13:59:37] <catfredo> Great approach.. maybe we even can approach the faculty for suggestions.
[2008-04-01 14:00:00] <Quicksilver[rt]> Also good.
[2008-04-01 14:00:20] <catfredo> Though that has a greater potential to get political…
[2008-04-01 14:01:10] <catfredo> Any other thoughts on blogs before I have to leave? You’ve all been great to talk to!
[2008-04-01 14:01:36] <catfredo> Thanks!
[2008-04-01 14:01:39] <Quicksilver[rt]> I’m good. This was nice for a small group.
[2008-04-01 14:01:45] <bsteere[rt]> Yep
[2008-04-01 14:01:51] <Quicksilver[rt]> I’d love suggestions on future discussion subjects.
[2008-04-01 14:02:05] =-= bsteere[rt] is now known as bsteere
[2008-04-01 14:02:16] <catfredo> Will send you a line. Bye!
[2008-04-01 14:02:17] <–| catfredo has left #uwebd
[2008-04-01 14:03:18] <Quicksilver[rt]> Thanks everyone!

Choosing/Comparing CMS’s

[2008-03-11 13:02:12] <Quicksilver[RT]> For everyone’s information, today’s round table will be logged and posted to the round table blog at http://uwebdroundtable.wordpress.com/ for future reference and the benefit of those that cannot make it, but would like to see what was discussed. Please keep that in mind if commenting in a fashion that you might not want to come back to you later. Please inform me after the session if there is a particular comment you would like me to edit from the logs before publishing it.
[2008-03-11 13:02:25] <Quicksilver[RT]> Before we begin, I would like everyone to take a moment and modify your nickname if you are planning on taking part in the round table.
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[2008-03-11 13:02:49] <Quicksilver[RT]> Please add [RT] to the end of your nickname, denoting your presence at the round table
[2008-03-11 13:02:52] –>| Megan (n=mjmcderm@sherlock.uwaterloo.ca) has joined #uwebd
[2008-03-11 13:03:03] =-= sjhorn is now known as sjhorn[RT]
[2008-03-11 13:03:05] <Quicksilver[RT]> If you aren’t familiar with how to change your nickname in the channel, try typing the command “/nick YourNickname[RT]” in the input box without the quote marks, and applying the w or wo as appropriate between the brackets.
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[2008-03-11 13:03:25] <nombrecinq> why are we doing RT?
[2008-03-11 13:03:28] <Quicksilver[RT]> Oops, ignore the w/wo part on that
[2008-03-11 13:03:28] =-= BSteere[RT] is now known as bsteere[RT]
[2008-03-11 13:03:30] <nombrecinq> we’re all here yo
[2008-03-11 13:03:34] <bsteere[RT]> Round Table
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[2008-03-11 13:03:43] =-= nullfame is now known as AMF[RT]
[2008-03-11 13:03:54] <nourisha> done
[2008-03-11 13:03:55] <Quicksilver[RT]> It will separate the participants from the lurkers
[2008-03-11 13:03:56] =-= mthornhill_MHC_[ is now known as mthornhill[RT]
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[2008-03-11 13:04:17] <Quicksilver[RT]> We will be trying to follow an agenda today to keep discussion somewhat organized and focused. You may read the agenda at http://uwebdroundtable.wordpress.com/2008/03/10/agenda-for-080311-choosingcomparing-cmss/
[2008-03-11 13:04:19] =-= AMF[RT] is now known as nullfame[lurker]
[2008-03-11 13:04:27] <Bryan-UMSON> I don’t know if I have anything to add to the discussion… so i’m lurking
[2008-03-11 13:04:35] <Quicksilver[RT]> (fair enough)
[2008-03-11 13:04:56] <Quicksilver[RT]> I want to take a second to thank everyone for coming in. It’s not too late that if you have colleagues that could benefit or contribute to the discussion, invite them in!
[2008-03-11 13:05:14] <nourisha> “/nick nourisha[RT]
[2008-03-11 13:05:22] =-= nullfame[lurker] is now known as AMF[RT]
[2008-03-11 13:05:25] <Quicksilver[RT]> So far, our discussions are proving very active, and each time we appear to be drawing in a few more people. So go us!
[2008-03-11 13:05:29] =-= nourisha is now known as nourisha[RT]
[2008-03-11 13:05:51] <Quicksilver[RT]> Let’s just get started with a quick roll call: who you are, what your position is, and what school you’re with.
[2008-03-11 13:05:52] <nombrecinq> i’ msort of here sort of not
[2008-03-11 13:05:53] <Quicksilver[RT]> Michael Fienen – Webmaster – Pittsburg State University
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[2008-03-11 13:06:00] <nombrecinq> trying to get some things done
[2008-03-11 13:06:06] <Quicksilver[RT]> (no worries)
[2008-03-11 13:06:20] <bsteere[RT]> Brian Steere – Web Developer – Cornell College
[2008-03-11 13:06:23] <xyzzy123[RT]> Bill Dennen – Web Technologist – Wheaton College (MA)
[2008-03-11 13:06:24] <mthornhill[RT]> Mike Thornhill – Director of Communications – Mars Hill College
[2008-03-11 13:06:32] <nombrecinq> Scott Hildebrand – Problem Solver (web developer, programmer, slave) – University of California, Davis
[2008-03-11 13:06:34] <Megan> Megan McDermott – Manager, Web Communications – University of Waterloo
[2008-03-11 13:06:40] <AMF[RT]> Adam Finlayson – Web Developer – Northwestern University (College of Arts and Sciences)
[2008-03-11 13:06:49] <unhookt[rt]> Elliot Lopez, Analyst/Web CMS Project Manager, UC Davis (http://cms.ucdavis.edu)
[2008-03-11 13:06:59] <combi001> Andy Combites – E-Communications Manager for the Academic Health Center at the University of Minnesota
[2008-03-11 13:07:15] <Bryan-UMSON> Bryan Hantman – Webmaster – University of Maryland (School of Nursing)
[2008-03-11 13:07:36] <saltybeagle> Brett Bieber – Web Dev – University of Nebraska-Lincoln
[2008-03-11 13:07:46] <nourisha[RT]> nourisha, web editor kcumb
[2008-03-11 13:08:05] <Quicksilver[RT]> Is there anything anyone would like to toss out before we start in? Clarifications, etc?
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[2008-03-11 13:08:32] <Quicksilver[RT]> No?
[2008-03-11 13:08:39] <Quicksilver[RT]> Super.
[2008-03-11 13:09:17] <Quicksilver[RT]> The first thing that I would like to ask, is that if any of you have gone through a selection process, and have documented that in a blog or elsewhere, if at some point you could share that URI with everyone, I know it would be appreciated.
[2008-03-11 13:09:41] <Quicksilver[RT]> We have a CMS, however have not documented our process at this time.
[2008-03-11 13:09:59] <combi001> The U of M is implementing Stellent (Now Oracle). Here is our Wiki: https://wiki-dev.software.umn.edu/view/StellentWCM/WebHome
[2008-03-11 13:10:18] <nombrecinq> oh
[2008-03-11 13:10:19] <Quicksilver[RT]> Great, thanks combi001
[2008-03-11 13:10:23] <nombrecinq> CMSes are boring ass
[2008-03-11 13:10:30] <nombrecinq> i think i’ll sit most of this one out
[2008-03-11 13:10:30] <combi001> Sorry. U of M for me is Minnesota.
[2008-03-11 13:10:40] <unhookt[rt]> UC Davis Web CMS Initiative – http://cms.ucdavis.edu
[2008-03-11 13:10:49] <nombrecinq> unhookt[rt] reprezent ucd yo
[2008-03-11 13:11:21] <Quicksilver[RT]> The first part of today’s discussion will revolve around choosing a CMS.
[2008-03-11 13:11:37] <Quicksilver[RT]> Do we have many of you that are currently or planning on moving to a CMS?
[2008-03-11 13:11:45] <Quicksilver[RT]> Or are investigating if you should?
[2008-03-11 13:11:52] <unhookt[rt]> Yes.
[2008-03-11 13:12:10] <Bryan-UMSON> We are — and we’re a Window’s shop — looking (ugh) for a .Net compliant CMS
[2008-03-11 13:12:17] <Megan> We’re just starting to investigate whether we should.
[2008-03-11 13:12:24] <annamsler> The University of Delaware is in the middle of its decision.
[2008-03-11 13:12:39] <bsteere[RT]> We’ve decided and are currently migrating
[2008-03-11 13:12:48] <mthornhill[RT]> We’re using Moodle for academics, Plone for intranet; I don’t know anything about the Moodle end of it, but we’re investigating possible replacement for the Plone
[2008-03-11 13:12:52] <nourisha[RT]> we are investigating at KCUMB
[2008-03-11 13:12:55] <AMF[RT]> Maybe? The University has one but our College’s consensus is that the implementation is not compelte enough yet
[2008-03-11 13:13:14] <combi001> The U of M has a very old and outdated install of FileNET that needed to be replaced. And it wasn’t universally used – colleges and departments could use whatever they want. But the new Stellent system will be the standard for the U.
[2008-03-11 13:13:24] <Quicksilver[RT]> Okay, good, so plenty of people researching then.
[2008-03-11 13:13:26] <nourisha[RT]> it is part of a larger site redesign
[2008-03-11 13:13:31] <unhookt[rt]> UC Davis is in the process of adopting a campus-wide Web CMS. We are currently at the start of the implementation phase.
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[2008-03-11 13:13:58] <Quicksilver[RT]> Has anyone felt the need for outside guidance in making your selection? Hiring a consultant?
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[2008-03-11 13:14:09] <Quicksilver[RT]> Or are you going it alone?
[2008-03-11 13:14:40] <combi001> I should also add that the U of M is involved with Drupal. We just conducted the formal usability testing for the Drupal organization last month.
[2008-03-11 13:14:50] <Quicksilver[RT]> I noted on the agenda for those looking to do research on their own to check out http://www.cmsmatrix.org
[2008-03-11 13:15:12] <Bryan-UMSON> we have no money for that. it’s hard enough finding money to help with a redesign, with respect to the discovery process
[2008-03-11 13:15:14] <Quicksilver[RT]> As a tool evaluate apples to apples on different systems.
[2008-03-11 13:15:30] <Quicksilver[RT]> Bryan-UMSON: Very true
[2008-03-11 13:15:44] <unhookt[rt]> We are employing an internal process that includes a core project team that manages the project on the strategic level, a steering committee that provides oversight, guidance and endorsement, and several activity committees that include technologists and content managers from all over campus.
[2008-03-11 13:15:59] <Quicksilver[RT]> So it’s probably fair to say that even if you wanted to, most of you are limited to doing your own footwork I think.
[2008-03-11 13:16:16] <combi001> The U of M did it alone. The requirements and definition phase went well with internal resources. But implementing it on our own has been a pain in the ass.
[2008-03-11 13:16:34] <bsteere[RT]> Cornell College also did it alone
[2008-03-11 13:16:36] =-= Quicksilver[RT] has changed the topic to “RoundTable in PROGRESS. [RT] after your nickname denotes that you are in the discussion.”
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[2008-03-11 13:17:02] <bsteere[RT]> And the implementation on our own has indeed been a royal pain
[2008-03-11 13:17:07] <unhookt[rt]> Our activity committees thus far have been focused on 1) Requirements definition and candidate evaluation/selection, and 2) Implementation
[2008-03-11 13:17:12] <annamsler> Delaware is doing it alone.
[2008-03-11 13:17:21] =-= Bryan-UMSON is now known as Bryan[RT]
[2008-03-11 13:17:30] <Quicksilver[RT]> So as you sit down in committees, or whatnot, what features are being identified as top priority?
[2008-03-11 13:17:40] <Quicksilver[RT]> Workflow? Editing? Hosting?
[2008-03-11 13:17:46] <Quicksilver[RT]> Support?
[2008-03-11 13:17:52] <Quicksilver[RT]> Cost?
[2008-03-11 13:17:54] <Bryan[RT]> Open the flood gates.
[2008-03-11 13:17:56] <combi001> Yeah, we cheaped out and didn’t hire the implementation consultants from the vendor. And we monkeyed with things under the hood so much to make the tool conform to our processes that it is hard to get good support now.
[2008-03-11 13:17:57] <Quicksilver[RT]> Hehe
[2008-03-11 13:18:10] <bsteere[RT]> Versioning, Editing, Cost, Browser Based
[2008-03-11 13:18:22] <Quicksilver[RT]> We really were looking to improve workflow and standardize templates
[2008-03-11 13:18:22] <bsteere[RT]> In no particular order
[2008-03-11 13:18:33] <bsteere[RT]> And the templates…that was really the big one
[2008-03-11 13:18:52] <AMF[RT]> IMO it should be the editor as number one if not the whole thing, but all the ohter things that will be mentioned here were part of it
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[2008-03-11 13:18:56] <Quicksilver[RT]> We were also having a lot of permissions problems in our current server environment
[2008-03-11 13:19:07] <combi001> Here is the U of M Requirements checklist: https://wiki-dev.software.umn.edu/view/StellentWCM/RFPRequirements
[2008-03-11 13:19:08] <unhookt[rt]> We developed use cases to help identify functionality. Otherwise, what you end up with is just a list of potential capabilities. Use cases make it possible to tie actual requirements to the users of the system.
[2008-03-11 13:19:25] <Quicksilver[RT]> We couldn’t give people access to things they needed to edit. There are even parts of the site I couldn’t edit.
[2008-03-11 13:19:31] <combi001> Agreed. Use cases are a good way to go.
[2008-03-11 13:19:47] <Quicksilver[RT]> Good call.
[2008-03-11 13:19:57] <AMF[RT]> agree with use cases. give them to vendor to perform during demo
[2008-03-11 13:20:02] <Quicksilver[RT]> How much time did you give to use cases?
[2008-03-11 13:20:52] <AMF[RT]> hard to say re: time. weeks in “committee time”
[2008-03-11 13:20:58] <unhookt[rt]> In the use-case development methodology, you start by defining who your users are.
[2008-03-11 13:21:02] <AMF[RT]> in human time a few hours
[2008-03-11 13:21:28] <combi001> At the time, I worked at the Carlson School of Management here at the U of M – Use cases were written during the requirements gathering and RFP writing process. That whole process took about 4 months. I’d say I spent a couple of days writing my use cases.
[2008-03-11 13:21:58] <Quicksilver[RT]> This ties in with the next part, which is creating a selection plan or process.
[2008-03-11 13:22:09] <Quicksilver[RT]> Which is a pretty vague description, I know.
[2008-03-11 13:22:16] <Quicksilver[RT]> We went straight to RFY
[2008-03-11 13:22:19] <Quicksilver[RT]> RFP rather.
[2008-03-11 13:22:26] <unhookt[rt]> Then we moved to identification of the types of interactions that the users will/would/should be able to have within, with and through the system. This led to the next step – identification of actual functional and technical requirements that we could use to compare candidate solutions.
[2008-03-11 13:22:58] <combi001> We had identified over 300 features we would like to have. We narrowed that down to about 20 or so for the RFP. RFP went out to vendors and I think we seriously evaluated about 6 or 7 options.
[2008-03-11 13:23:19] <unhookt[rt]> Our Requirements and Evaluation committee (12 people) hashed out users, use cases and requirements in 5-6 weekly meetings of 1.5 hours each.
[2008-03-11 13:23:38] <Quicksilver[RT]> And was the same committee responsible for the ultimate selection?
[2008-03-11 13:24:20] <unhookt[rt]> Our Requirements and Evaluation committee then identified the functional and technical requirements that were absolutely vital – “Must Haves”
[2008-03-11 13:24:52] <combi001> The entire U of M committee was huge. We broke it into smaller working groups. One group worked on use cases, one worked on the RFP, one worked on vendor evaluations (we all participated in that, but one small group led the effort). We also identified a core group that would be the pilot projects.
[2008-03-11 13:25:21] <unhookt[rt]> This became our prequalification list. Any system that would be subjected to further comparison had to include all of the capabilities on that list. The rest of the technical and functional requirements were prioritized on a scale of 1-3. That was the fun part!
[2008-03-11 13:25:23] <Bryan[RT]> Can we back up for a moment to use cases? How many uses cases did you come up with before writing the RFP at U of M (or elsewhere)?
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[2008-03-11 13:26:32] <Quicksilver[RT]> Possible Use Case Writing Resource: http://alistair.cockburn.us/index.php/Resources_for_writing_use_cases
[2008-03-11 13:26:38] <unhookt[rt]> I don’t have a count, but the individual use cases were not used for writing the RFP – they were used for identifying technical and functional requirements
[2008-03-11 13:26:52] <Quicksilver[RT]> (for reference later, was just a quick Google result)
[2008-03-11 13:26:56] <unhookt[rt]> That’s a good resource. Here’s another: http://www.processimpact.com/articles/usecase.html
[2008-03-11 13:27:05] <AMF[RT]> we did user case after rfp before demo (maybe a bad idea) but had ~20 “scenerios” with maybe hafl as many actors (“personae”)
[2008-03-11 13:27:12] <combi001> I can’t remember the exact number – but we had three classifications. OIT/backend admins, developers, and content editors/contributors
[2008-03-11 13:27:51] <unhookt[rt]> So it’s an iterative process: 1) Define users 2) Define use cases to determine functional and technical requirements 3) Use requirements to filter/evaluate candidate solutions
[2008-03-11 13:28:17] <Quicksilver[RT]> Essentially outlining common tasks users go through, and detailing the steps, correct?
[2008-03-11 13:28:22] <Bryan[RT]> thanks
[2008-03-11 13:28:27] <unhookt[rt]> Yes
[2008-03-11 13:28:31] <combi001> Yes, it was definitely an iterative process for us.
[2008-03-11 13:28:57] <Quicksilver[RT]> So, as you are looking at CMS’s, or looked at them previously, are you giving equal weight to open source and commercial systems?
[2008-03-11 13:29:09] <Quicksilver[RT]> I know I heard some Drupal and Plone being brought up earlier.
[2008-03-11 13:29:22] <bsteere[RT]> We weren’t allowed to look at open source
[2008-03-11 13:29:22] <Quicksilver[RT]> We use dotCMS, which is enterprise grade open source.
[2008-03-11 13:29:27] <AMF[RT]> we gave equal weight to OS but had consultants bid on behalf of the systems
[2008-03-11 13:29:43] <unhookt[rt]> By doing it this way, you flush out the nuances of your specific environment, user preferences, contextual criteria, etc. that influence both the types and relative value/importance of the different functional and technical requirements you come up with
[2008-03-11 13:29:51] <Quicksilver[RT]> bsteere: Reason being?
[2008-03-11 13:30:06] <bsteere[RT]> Our director at the time was of the mindset that you get what you pay for
[2008-03-11 13:30:12] <saltybeagle> ‘enterprise grade open source
[2008-03-11 13:30:14] <combi001> When we started the process in January 2006, there were only a few of us who were really pushing Open Source options. But I think the powers that be were a little spooked by that concept. They were more comfrtable dealing with commercail vendors.
[2008-03-11 13:30:48] <mthornhill[RT]> Our ITS is pretty open (pun somewhat intended) to open source.
[2008-03-11 13:30:49] <nourisha[RT]> we don’t have the resources to handle an open source implementation
[2008-03-11 13:30:50] <bsteere[RT]> If we were able to do it again now, I think we would look at both equally…possibly with a preference towards open source
[2008-03-11 13:30:51] <mthornhill[RT]> Especially budget-wise.
[2008-03-11 13:30:52] <unhookt[rt]> We started with a list of 150 open source and commercial solutions, and we used our prequalification list (mentioned earlier) to filter that down to a workable number.
[2008-03-11 13:31:19] <Quicksilver[RT]> Do you think the differences in support and community development make the two pretty even?
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[2008-03-11 13:31:29] <unhookt[rt]> We didn’t approach the selection with preconceived notions about cost, etc. Most are based on fallacious assumptions, anyway.
[2008-03-11 13:31:40] <saltybeagle[RT]> sorry… ‘enterprise grade open source’ ? What is this…? Sounds arbitrary.
[2008-03-11 13:31:41] <combi001> Well, the resource requirements to handle a commercial install have been a challenge for us
[2008-03-11 13:31:45] <Quicksilver[RT]> Commercial software might have better immediate support, but open source allows a larger pool of knowledge to draw from?
[2008-03-11 13:32:02] <nourisha[RT]> but we don’t have a large budget to work with either so it’s a catch 22
[2008-03-11 13:32:14] <bsteere[RT]> Our preference would currently be an open source product with commercial support
[2008-03-11 13:32:24] <AMF[RT]> of course closed source vendors dont want to spend money supporting you so dont expect tons of help there
[2008-03-11 13:32:31] <Quicksilver[RT]> saltybeagle: Our CMS is an enterprise level CMS developed by dotMarketing for education. Rather than charge, they opened the code, and based it off of projects like Liferay and Apache
[2008-03-11 13:32:35] <unhookt[rt]> We found budget to pretty much be a non-issue. When we compared our open source and commercial finalists, we found them to be comparable in cost.
[2008-03-11 13:32:55] <Quicksilver[RT]> But we can pay for top level support
[2008-03-11 13:33:05] <Bryan[RT]> WHat kinds of costs are you talking about?
[2008-03-11 13:33:30] <Quicksilver[RT]> Got transition to next point Bryan
[2008-03-11 13:33:39] <Quicksilver[RT]> What should people plan on budgeting for?
[2008-03-11 13:33:55] <unhookt[rt]> We anticipated that some level of outside integration services would be required to get us up and running, regardless of whether it was an open source or commercial solution.
[2008-03-11 13:34:03] <bsteere[RT]> Servers, Implementation Time, Migration Time
[2008-03-11 13:34:07] <nourisha[RT]> initial and continued support
[2008-03-11 13:34:17] <Quicksilver[RT]> For us, we are having them do the templates and design. We also pay for annual support. User conference.
[2008-03-11 13:34:17] <unhookt[rt]> The expertise required to deploy on a campus-wide level won’t just materialize here.
[2008-03-11 13:34:19] <bsteere[RT]> Licensing (if necessary)
[2008-03-11 13:34:30] <unhookt[rt]> Annual support, hardware, etc.
[2008-03-11 13:34:39] <Quicksilver[RT]> We deployed in a VMWare server, so no added hardware costs on this end luckily
[2008-03-11 13:34:45] <combi001> Well, the U of M has spent over a million dollars so far. We installed in December of 2006 and our first site went live last month – 14 months after install.
[2008-03-11 13:34:46] <AMF[RT]> training… not just the initial launch but good to have some money saved for once you have a basic undertstanding to go to an advanced class
[2008-03-11 13:34:47] <unhookt[rt]> Time and human resources – initial and ongoing
[2008-03-11 13:35:02] <Quicksilver[RT]> Most places will need some level of custom integration with other apps.
[2008-03-11 13:35:06] <AMF[RT]> lol combi that sounds familiar
[2008-03-11 13:35:09] <bsteere[RT]> We tried a virtual server…didn’t have vmware at the time and Microsoft Virtual Server wasn’t really up to it
[2008-03-11 13:35:31] <Quicksilver[RT]> We’re having good luck with it so far.
[2008-03-11 13:35:39] <Quicksilver[RT]> That said, we aren’t live yet.
[2008-03-11 13:35:54] <bsteere[RT]> We’re getting ready to roll out a VMWare setup…Highly Available and everything
[2008-03-11 13:35:57] <Quicksilver[RT]> Though we are hosting a newsletter from the system, to start testing things.
[2008-03-11 13:36:12] <Bryan[RT]> URI to the newsletter?
[2008-03-11 13:36:28] <Quicksilver[RT]> (newsletter functionality in dotCMS for reference: http://www.pittstate.edu/geeks/newsletter.html)
[2008-03-11 13:36:52] <Quicksilver[RT]> (blog detailing creation: http://www.supersatellite.com/2008/03/11/using-dotcms-a-practical-example/)
[2008-03-11 13:36:56] <combi001> The problem for us was we rushed the process right after purchase. We front-loaded all of our alloted consultant/suuport hours and wasted them up. It took us forever to get a base install and we didn’t even know what to ask the consultants. We needed to follow a more linear process instead of parallel processes.
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[2008-03-11 13:37:25] <xyzzy123[RT]> which version of dotcms is this? (ie. which edition?)
[2008-03-11 13:37:30] <Quicksilver[RT]> Is anyone doing or looking at a hosted solution like OmniUpdate?
[2008-03-11 13:37:34] <Quicksilver[RT]> (1.5.1)
[2008-03-11 13:38:30] <AMF[RT]> we looked at omniupdate but i dont think our central it would have dug the idea of a hosted solution authenticating against our ldap (a requirement, though not presently implemeneted in any evet)
[2008-03-11 13:38:40] <unhookt[rt]> We evaluated hosted as well. Ongoing costs are substantial – depends on whether you have a small, stable pool of potential users or the possibility of seeing great numbers of additional users as the popularity of your solution grows.
[2008-03-11 13:38:48] <combi001> I should add that in the past 14 months, most of us have been trying to MIGRATE our old sites over via migration scripts. That has taken MUCH longer than anticipated.
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[2008-03-11 13:39:00] <Quicksilver[RT]> Understandable.
[2008-03-11 13:39:22] <nourisha[RT]> we have three people on staff so everything is going to take us forever
[2008-03-11 13:39:28] <Quicksilver[RT]> I liked OmniUpdate, but didn’t like the idea of not having control.
[2008-03-11 13:39:39] <bsteere[RT]> Migration time has been either: a) manual copying/pasting of old content to cms or b) creation of new content
[2008-03-11 13:39:44] <Quicksilver[RT]> I know dotCMS is planning a hosted solution in the future too.
[2008-03-11 13:39:49] <bsteere[RT]> Which is a long, ongoing process
[2008-03-11 13:39:54] <Quicksilver[RT]> bsteere: ditto here.
[2008-03-11 13:40:04] <AMF[RT]> copy/paste: same
[2008-03-11 13:40:05] <combi001> Here’s a question – not sure how it relates – but what about governance processes? How has that impacted you? We have none, so we also had to consider that no matter what tool/workflow we went with, there were a lot of process things we had to address OUTSIDE of the technology solution.
[2008-03-11 13:40:11] <Quicksilver[RT]> We’re going to create a lot of new content, then see what leftovers need to be brought in.
[2008-03-11 13:40:36] <Quicksilver[RT]> combi001: We’re dealing with some of that.
[2008-03-11 13:40:46] <AMF[RT]> we used to have a committee (mostly peeps from selection) that oversaw governance of the system
[2008-03-11 13:40:47] <Quicksilver[RT]> Marketing was appointed owner of the web site here.
[2008-03-11 13:40:56] <Quicksilver[RT]> And I was moved under them.
[2008-03-11 13:41:24] <combi001> Yeah, OIT owns it here. Our University Relations is involved, but OIT dictates a lot of the decisions.
[2008-03-11 13:41:33] <Quicksilver[RT]> A bit of both. The top layer of the site will be 100% marketing
[2008-03-11 13:41:47] <bsteere[RT]> No real governance in place here. People can do pretty much whatever they can figure out how to do within the folders they have access to.
[2008-03-11 13:41:56] <Quicksilver[RT]> Below a certain level, departments and offices will have control, within style guidelines
[2008-03-11 13:41:58] <bsteere[RT]> Technically Communications is in charge of the whole thing.
[2008-03-11 13:42:06] <Quicksilver[RT]> We still have to develop a style guide though.
[2008-03-11 13:42:24] <combi001> Funny. When I was at the Carlson School, web/interactive was part of marketing and communications. But a new Dean said, “The web is not a strategic marketing tool. It is an IT function.” YIKES! And this is the Dean of the business school. So we were moved to IT.
[2008-03-11 13:42:42] <Quicksilver[RT]> Heh, we moved out of IT.
[2008-03-11 13:42:49] <Quicksilver[RT]> Which has worked to our benefit
[2008-03-11 13:43:06] <Bryan[RT]> I’m in Comm, and we’re driving this…
[2008-03-11 13:43:12] <Quicksilver[RT]> Though my ultimate goal is a web communications office.
[2008-03-11 13:43:24] <Quicksilver[RT]> Anyway, we have about 15 minutes left.
[2008-03-11 13:43:31] <combi001> Yes, the governance model we are moving towards is like a bunch of pyramids within pyramids. Marketing will own the “tips” and departments will own the details underneath.
[2008-03-11 13:43:39] <Quicksilver[RT]> The second part of the roundtable was for comparing CMS (features)
[2008-03-11 13:43:50] <bsteere[RT]> IT is in charge of getting users into the system and keeping it working. Also, updating the templates. OCC (Office of College Communications) is theoretically in charge of who goes in and when.
[2008-03-11 13:43:54] <Quicksilver[RT]> But, I think the best way to approach that is to just open things up.
[2008-03-11 13:44:22] <Quicksilver[RT]> Have a free-for-all for people to ask questions to those of us with systems
[2008-03-11 13:44:35] <Quicksilver[RT]> Or who evaluated a lot of them.
[2008-03-11 13:44:48] <AMF[RT]> im curious if anyone is satisfied with their “web editor” (wysiwyg) tool
[2008-03-11 13:44:55] <jdw5> ok I’ll go first: how did you avoid the “try to please everyone and end up pleasing noone” problem?
[2008-03-11 13:44:58] <AMF[RT]> esp compared to contribute or even dw… is it any good?
[2008-03-11 13:44:59] <jdw5> AMF: we are
[2008-03-11 13:45:00] <bsteere[RT]> Not especially
[2008-03-11 13:45:08] <Quicksilver[RT]> jdw5: We picked dotCMS
[2008-03-11 13:45:12] <bsteere[RT]> Cascade uses TinyMCE but doesn’t let us control it
[2008-03-11 13:45:24] <Bryan[RT]> What CMS did you choose not to go w/, and why?
[2008-03-11 13:45:35] <Quicksilver[RT]> I like dotCMS’s approach to content, which is sort of a hybrid WYSIWYG
[2008-03-11 13:45:35] <bsteere[RT]> jdw5: we didn’t…we aren’t even particularly pleased
[2008-03-11 13:45:40] <jdw5> AMF: but that’s because we stuck with Contribute and integrated it into our existing software version control system – kind of a hybrid
[2008-03-11 13:45:44] <AMF[RT]> i find ours takes 25 clicks to get there and isnt very robust once you can begin to edit
[2008-03-11 13:45:58] <VTbruce> You can please everyone — as my boss says, “There is no perfect CMS.” You have to pick the best features and accept that it won’t do everything.
[2008-03-11 13:46:01] <AMF[RT]> jdw5: what system?
[2008-03-11 13:46:16] <bsteere[RT]> Bryan: We use Hannon Hill’s Cascade Server. It was chosen as it looked like the best of our options.
[2008-03-11 13:46:17] <jdw5> AMF[RT]: Perforce
[2008-03-11 13:46:47] <VTbruce> Virginia Tech is using Rhythmyx from Percussion.
[2008-03-11 13:46:50] <bsteere[RT]> Also, one of few we could afford
[2008-03-11 13:47:06] <Quicksilver[RT]> dotCMS demo: http://dotcms.org/products/dotcms/demo.dot
[2008-03-11 13:47:16] <xyzzy123[RT]> noone using reddot?
[2008-03-11 13:47:20] <Quicksilver[RT]> Free was a big selling point.
[2008-03-11 13:47:24] <Quicksilver[RT]> We looked at Red Dot
[2008-03-11 13:47:26] <Quicksilver[RT]> Too expensive
[2008-03-11 13:47:31] <nourisha[RT]> gotta go to a meeting. i’ll check out the transcript though. thanks for all the links guys! toodles
[2008-03-11 13:47:38] <Quicksilver[RT]> Thanks for coming!
[2008-03-11 13:47:40] <bsteere[RT]> Likewise (with the too expensive)
[2008-03-11 13:47:46] <combi001> I think the big problem for us is that an enterprise-level CMS is a pipe dream. We are just too diverse on campus. The medical school has different needs than the school of music. For example, if I take 20 people to Baskin Robbins for Ice Cream and tell them they all have to agree on the same flavor, you will probably walk out of there with vanilla or chocolate. The only flavor that everyone…
[2008-03-11 13:47:48] <combi001> …can agree on by that nobody really wanted.
[2008-03-11 13:48:07] <saltybeagle[RT]> combi001: agree with you.
[2008-03-11 13:48:09] * bsteere[RT] likes vanilla
[2008-03-11 13:48:11] <VTbruce> VT looked at Red Dot, but it wasn’t accessible — and the review committee had someone who saw that as a major issue in any solution.
[2008-03-11 13:48:26] <jdw5> combi001: that’s a great description of the problem most of us (those who aren’t at really small schools) face
[2008-03-11 13:48:28] <AMF[RT]> agree with combi. i think the key is to find *very few* *absolutly key* features and evaluate on those
[2008-03-11 13:48:33] <unhookt[rt]> We recently conducted a survey and published results: What Web CMS’s Are Campuses Using? http://pubcomm-29.ucdavis.edu/?p=35
[2008-03-11 13:48:40] <jdw5> combi001: the “business needs” of each unit vary too much
[2008-03-11 13:48:43] <bsteere[RT]> Even small schools have the same problem
[2008-03-11 13:48:55] <Quicksilver[RT]> Is everyone using LDAP?
[2008-03-11 13:48:59] <bsteere[RT]> Yep
[2008-03-11 13:49:02] <Quicksilver[RT]> We lucked into it.
[2008-03-11 13:49:03] <AMF[RT]> eg, nobody uses workflow two years later but it was super important in evaluation
[2008-03-11 13:49:10] <AMF[RT]> ldap yes
[2008-03-11 13:49:18] <jdw5> combi001: which is why I’m skeptical that VTbruce’s assertion that you can please everyone is questionable
[2008-03-11 13:49:26] <bsteere[RT]> (Well…AD, but close enough)
[2008-03-11 13:49:32] <jdw5> combi001: er, you know what I mean
[2008-03-11 13:49:52] <jdw5> Kerberos
[2008-03-11 13:50:12] <combi001> I think the key to success is to let schools/colleges on campus pick their own systems, but they should all write to a same backend. For example, standardize on Oracle or SQL – then at least it is easier to get them to work with each other.
[2008-03-11 13:50:50] <Quicksilver[RT]> Who is on Open Source vs. Commercial?
[2008-03-11 13:50:53] <xyzzy123[RT]> er; dotCMS for .org
[2008-03-11 13:50:54] <jdw5> combi001: information interoperability doesn’t work like that
[2008-03-11 13:51:03] <xyzzy123[RT]> (cut/paste issue!)
[2008-03-11 13:51:12] <combi001> Agreed on workflow. Every place I have ever worked talks about it but nobody uses it. They all end up forgetting the author and editor roles. Everyone is an approver.
[2008-03-11 13:51:23] <saltybeagle[RT]> Here at UNL – marketing/communications defines the presentation, individual depts can take that and stick it on any CMS that can make it happen.
[2008-03-11 13:51:40] <Quicksilver[RT]> xyzzy123: What’s that you’re asking?
[2008-03-11 13:51:45] <jdw5> combi001: we use workflow here
[2008-03-11 13:51:52] <jdw5> combi001: have been for almost a year now
[2008-03-11 13:51:56] <jdw5> very successful
[2008-03-11 13:52:04] <xyzzy123[RT]> I see there is a “dotCMS for .edu”: is that what you’re using?
[2008-03-11 13:52:16] <jdw5> but then again that was one of the “mission critical” components we built as part of the glue
[2008-03-11 13:52:29] <jdw5> so it matches the business process and not the other way around
[2008-03-11 13:52:30] <Quicksilver[RT]> No actually. Chris at U of Edinboro is though.
[2008-03-11 13:52:40] <combi001> How do you enforce or make it successful – it doesn’t work here because we’ve never had it. People claim “academic freedom” and that they can do whatever they want, however they want.
[2008-03-11 13:52:49] <Quicksilver[RT]> The .edu version just comes with some prebuilt structures and stuff that the normal one doesn’t
[2008-03-11 13:52:56] <xyzzy123[RT]> ah
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[2008-03-11 13:53:15] <jdw5> combi001: very good question. By fiat. The dean says everything goes through the Communciations department for approval
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[2008-03-11 13:54:07] <Quicksilver[RT]> combi001: We just remove the choice.
[2008-03-11 13:54:10] <Quicksilver[RT]> Heh
[2008-03-11 13:54:12] <jdw5> combi001: just about everyone can make changes, and the Communications editor makes sure the copy is “web ready”, fits the IA, etc
[2008-03-11 13:54:25] <Quicksilver[RT]> But really, where we are coming from was so bad, everyone is very enthusiastic luckily
[2008-03-11 13:54:39] <jdw5> combi001: with the exception of 1 or 2 folks everyone thought that was in the best interest of the school
[2008-03-11 13:54:46] <Quicksilver[RT]> Plus we’ve made it clear that there will be minimalist templates for those needing greater flexibility.
[2008-03-11 13:54:59] <Quicksilver[RT]> But that will all be governed by rules in the style guide.
[2008-03-11 13:55:18] <combi001> Yeah, leadership understands, but faculty do not. And they don’t like to make the faculty mad.
[2008-03-11 13:55:32] <Bryan[RT]> jdw5: when you mean the web editor makes it “web ready”…is everything edited by an editor before going live?
[2008-03-11 13:55:56] <Quicksilver[RT]> I find good interpersonal communication skills go a long way towards smooth transitions.
[2008-03-11 13:56:04] <VTbruce> CMS or no, enforcing standards has always been a problem here. At least we now offer templates and there is a lot of buy-in, but still there are holdouts
[2008-03-11 13:56:11] <combi001> Agreed that keeping templates minimal has been a wise move by our University Relations – pretty much a header and a footer and a request to use the same three column layout. But what you do in those three columns is up to you.
[2008-03-11 13:56:12] <Quicksilver[RT]> Unfortunately, you can’t buy that with CMS’s, heh
[2008-03-11 13:56:57] <jdw5> Bryan[RT]: officially, yes. they review it. in practice, though, people got the hang of writing / organizing well before submitting things (or knowing they needed to chat with “experts” before submitting things)
[2008-03-11 13:57:01] <Quicksilver[RT]> Governance also helps. Having a clear owner (one who isn’t me and doesn’t care if they’re the bad guy) who makes calls is good.
[2008-03-11 13:58:06] <Quicksilver[RT]> Also the layout of our new site helps, where the top layer is Marketing, no matter what. Below that, no big deal. At least we’ve controlled the important info.
[2008-03-11 13:58:44] <Quicksilver[RT]> Okay, as we’re running up on 2:00, I want to thank everyone for coming before people start to disappear.
[2008-03-11 13:58:58] <Quicksilver[RT]> Of course, everyone is welcome to stay and continue discussing
[2008-03-11 13:59:03] <Bryan[RT]> this has been good
[2008-03-11 13:59:09] <Quicksilver[RT]> I will run the log as far as necessary
[2008-03-11 13:59:13] <Bryan[RT]> thnx
[2008-03-11 13:59:17] <Megan[RT]> Thanks for sharing your experiences!
[2008-03-11 13:59:26] <Quicksilver[RT]> I’m also happy to take suggestions for the next roundtable poll.
[2008-03-11 13:59:33] <combi001> Yeah, I gott run. This was a good start. Feel free to email me at combi001@umn.edu if you have any questions.
[2008-03-11 13:59:39] <unhookt[rt]> We consider the Web CMS a tool that we provide our site managers and technologists – to help them comply with the standards and policies that govern official campus Web sites.
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[2008-03-11 13:59:46] <AMF[RT]> so just to be sure, nobody really likes their wysiwyg editor, except jdw5 who has a fat client
[2008-03-11 14:00:01] <mthornhill[RT]> thanks, all. I haven’t had much to contribute, but got some good links and info, and I look forward to reading back through the transcript
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[2008-03-11 14:00:03] <AMF[RT]> (which i like the idea of)
[2008-03-11 14:00:03] <Quicksilver[RT]> AMF[RT]: I am not unhappy with mine.
[2008-03-11 14:00:05] <combi001> We used to have FCK editor and it was good.
[2008-03-11 14:00:07] <jdw5> AMF[RT]: completely agree, which is precisely why we went fat client
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[2008-03-11 14:00:14] <Quicksilver[RT]> It’s just a bit different from the normal way of doing things.
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[2008-03-11 14:01:10] <AMF[RT]> does anyone use concurrent licensing for desktop software? not necessary cms realted but kindaish
[2008-03-11 14:01:15] <AMF[RT]> key server and the like
[2008-03-11 14:01:54] <jdw5> AMF[RT]: we do, but I don’t know the details other than that
[2008-03-11 14:02:14] <AMF[RT]> right. contribute is like as easy as falling down
[2008-03-11 14:02:23] <jdw5> AMF[RT]: exactly
[2008-03-11 14:02:42] <Quicksilver[RT]> jdw5: dotCMS handles content input through a form, complete with tips and helpers. But any field can have a WYSIWIG attached to it.
[2008-03-11 14:02:44] <jdw5> AMF[RT]: but it completely sucks regarding integration with rich (read: non-static) sites
[2008-03-11 14:02:53] <bsteere[RT]> I like TinyMCE, but only if I can control it
[2008-03-11 14:02:58] <AMF[RT]> everything else ive seen has taken way more clicks to get to content (and rarely in a browse interface) and then isnt good editor once you open document
[2008-03-11 14:03:02] <Quicksilver[RT]> Creating content is like filling in a contact form.
[2008-03-11 14:03:03] <AMF[RT]> right on
[2008-03-11 14:03:10] <AMF[RT]> re: TinyMCE
[2008-03-11 14:03:22] <unhookt[rt]> Gotta run, but I’m happy to share project and process information and documentation with anyone interested: ellopez@ucdavis.edu or http://cms.ucdavis.edu
[2008-03-11 14:03:32] <unhookt[rt]> This was great

Establishing Web Policies

[2008-02-26 13:04:13] <Quicksilver[wo]> For everyone’s information, today’s round table will be logged and posted to the round table blog at http://uwebdroundtable.wordpress.com/ for future reference and the benefit of those that cannot make it, but would like to see what was discussed. Please keep that in mind if commenting in a fashion that you might not want to come back to you later. Please inform me after the session if there is a particular comment you would like me to edit from the logs before publishing it.
[2008-02-26 13:04:28] =-= Reggie is now known as woodenr_apsu[w]
[2008-02-26 13:04:42] <Quicksilver[wo]> Before we begin, I would like everyone to take a moment and modify your nickname if you are planning on taking part in the round table.
[2008-02-26 13:04:49] <Quicksilver[wo]> If you come from an institution that has some kind of well defined web policy, please add the characters [w] after your nickname (denoting “with”)
[2008-02-26 13:04:50] =-= cfalzone is now known as cfalz_eup
[2008-02-26 13:04:56] <Quicksilver[wo]> If you come from an institution that does not have a clear web policy, please add the characters [wo] after your nickname (denoting “without”)
[2008-02-26 13:05:04] <Quicksilver[wo]> If you aren’t familiar with how to change your nickname in the channel, try typing the command “/nick YourNickname[w]” in the input box without the quote marks, and applying the w or wo as appropriate between the brackets.
[2008-02-26 13:05:15] <Quicksilver[wo]> We will be trying to follow an agenda today to keep discussion somewhat organized and focused. You may read the agenda at http://uwebdroundtable.wordpress.com/2008/02/22/agenda-for-080226-establishing-web-policies/
[2008-02-26 13:05:27] =-= cfalz_eup is now known as cfalz_eup[wo]
[2008-02-26 13:05:30] <Quicksilver[wo]> For the benefit of discussion, a “web policy” can be viewed to refer to any document, rules, or regulations that define standards regarding branding or presentation of web pages, governs content workflow, describes specific format requirements, or otherwise dictates a clear protocol for developing a campus web site or component thereof.
[2008-02-26 13:05:47] =-= Ceas_Webhamster is now known as ceas_[w]
[2008-02-26 13:06:07] <Quicksilver[wo]> This definition is not set in stone, but meant to act as a guide.
[2008-02-26 13:06:11] <Quicksilver[wo]> I want to take a second to thank everyone for coming in. It’s not too late that if you have colleagues that could benefit or contribute to the discussion, invite them in!
[2008-02-26 13:06:26] <Quicksilver[wo]> Let’s just get started with a quick roll call: who you are, what your position is, and what school you’re with.
[2008-02-26 13:06:31] <Quicksilver[wo]> Michael Fienen – Webmaster – Pittsburg State University
[2008-02-26 13:06:53] <wilsons_apsu[w]> Steve Wilson, Asst. Director for Web and Multimedia Design, Austin Peay State University
[2008-02-26 13:06:53] <cfalz_eup[wo]> Christopher Falzone – Web Developer – Edinboro University of PA
[2008-02-26 13:07:08] <ceas_[w]> Sam Kallen – Webmaster – Western Michigan University
[2008-02-26 13:07:09] <theTownBarber[w]> Todd Barber – Webmaster – Univ of Tennessee Health Science Center
[2008-02-26 13:07:27] <woodenr_apsu[w]> Reg Wooden – Web Server Specialist – Austin Peay State University
[2008-02-26 13:07:52] <Quicksilver[wo]> Looks like we have a slightly smaller group than last time, but that’s okay, we’ll rock this like a baby.
[2008-02-26 13:08:12] <Quicksilver[wo]> Is there anything anyone would like to toss out before we start in?
[2008-02-26 13:08:21] <Quicksilver[wo]> Clarifications, etc?
[2008-02-26 13:08:40] <Quicksilver[wo]> We’ll try to go around alphabetically by nickname when possible.
[2008-02-26 13:09:18] <Quicksilver[wo]> No?
[2008-02-26 13:09:21] <Quicksilver[wo]> Super.
[2008-02-26 13:10:04] <Quicksilver[wo]> The first thing I’d like to ask, is if those of you whose campuses do have policies in place, if you can share URIs to those policies for the benefit of others, that would be super.
[2008-02-26 13:10:30] <Quicksilver[wo]> Assuming said policy is posted online somewhere.
[2008-02-26 13:10:51] <theTownBarber[w]> as a pdf – http://www.utmem.edu/policies/w932_document_show.php?p=517
[2008-02-26 13:11:01] <wilsons_apsu[w]> What a ten year old Web policy looks like – http://www.apsu.edu/policy/pdf/99025.pdf
[2008-02-26 13:11:20] <Quicksilver[wo]> Gets better with age, right?
[2008-02-26 13:11:34] <wilsons_apsu[w]> ha
[2008-02-26 13:11:58] <Quicksilver[wo]> This first section of discussion is looking mainly for input from those of you with policies of some kind.
[2008-02-26 13:12:34] <Quicksilver[wo]> Who is it that is in charge of setting your policy? A certain department or office? A committee? A panda locked in the closet?
[2008-02-26 13:12:35] <ceas_[w]> http://www.wmich.edu/ur/standards/
[2008-02-26 13:13:10] <theTownBarber[w]> monkeys throwing anvils.
[2008-02-26 13:13:34] <wilsons_apsu[w]> well, since it hasn’t been changed in a decade, you tell me?
[2008-02-26 13:13:44] <Quicksilver[wo]> Heh.
[2008-02-26 13:14:02] <Quicksilver[wo]> Perhaps having a policy is not necessarily any better than flying without a net.
[2008-02-26 13:14:16] <theTownBarber[w]> we had a cmte composed of one rep from each college and each vice-chancellor’s area
[2008-02-26 13:14:22] <wilsons_apsu[w]> it can easily be misinformation if not kept current
[2008-02-26 13:14:25] <cfalz_eup[wo]> I kinda lied I guess .. we do have a policy but it is for some reason behind authentication
[2008-02-26 13:14:49] <cfalz_eup[wo]> Our VP of Tech and Comm is the one responsable
[2008-02-26 13:15:30] <theTownBarber[w]> changes are initiated by the Webmaster (me) and then must be approved by the Web Cmte
[2008-02-26 13:16:07] <Quicksilver[wo]> Makes sense.
[2008-02-26 13:16:11] <Quicksilver[wo]> What about enforcement?
[2008-02-26 13:16:21] <Quicksilver[wo]> What if someone posts something violating your policy?
[2008-02-26 13:16:43] <Quicksilver[wo]> Can the webmaster or whomever just take it down, revoke privileges, etc?
[2008-02-26 13:16:59] <theTownBarber[w]> I have the authority from the policy to immediately take anything down
[2008-02-26 13:17:34] <Quicksilver[wo]> Do you find that you do that often?
[2008-02-26 13:17:37] <theTownBarber[w]> I must then contact them to see if I interpreted it wrong, if so I put it back up, if not they can then go over my head
[2008-02-26 13:17:46] <cfalz_eup[wo]> Our official stance on this .. “The cited department will have two weeks to bring the noted pages into compliance or the web pages will be removed from the server.” Though I am not sure how widely enforced that policy is
[2008-02-26 13:18:08] <wilsons_apsu[w]> “However, the
[2008-02-26 13:18:10] <wilsons_apsu[w]> University reserves the right to remove (without notice) from any Austin Peay State
[2008-02-26 13:18:11] <wilsons_apsu[w]> Web server any page or link to any page that it deems offensive or inappropriate, is
[2008-02-26 13:18:13] <wilsons_apsu[w]> found to be in violation of the law or University policies or interests or that is
[2008-02-26 13:18:14] <wilsons_apsu[w]> detrimental to performance of the Web server or the network.”
[2008-02-26 13:18:23] <theTownBarber[w]> i have never had to take anything down, but I’m also not browsing our site all day looking for stuff either
[2008-02-26 13:18:38] <woodenr_apsu[w]> We have…and we LOVED it
[2008-02-26 13:19:00] <cfalz_eup[wo]> The Publications Office is in charge of enforcement .. Tech and Comm is more of the “Arm” of that enforcement.
[2008-02-26 13:19:58] <Quicksilver[wo]> How about revisions?
[2008-02-26 13:20:19] <Quicksilver[wo]> How frequently do you try to review policy?
[2008-02-26 13:20:26] <theTownBarber[w]> all revisions must be approved by a cmte
[2008-02-26 13:20:45] <Quicksilver[wo]> Except Steve of course
[2008-02-26 13:20:59] <Quicksilver[wo]> So do you just do it as needed then?
[2008-02-26 13:21:13] <wilsons_apsu[w]> being solely in command is a blessing and a curse
[2008-02-26 13:21:16] <cfalz_eup[wo]> There is an on-going joke that once a “Rainbow-Twirling-Scotsman” found it’s way onto a page and needed to be taken down. That is the one clear-cut case of something that needed to be removed by us .. however, Publications has mentioned several times where they have had to actually go out and edit information on pages.
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[2008-02-26 13:21:40] <cfalz_eup[wo]> From the Policy: “Review Date: As Required”
[2008-02-26 13:21:51] <Quicksilver[wo]> I think that should be your new mascot, heh.
[2008-02-26 13:21:55] <cfalz_eup[wo]> It has not been reviewed since Nov 2003
[2008-02-26 13:22:30] <Quicksilver[wo]> (cyberchuckTX: You can add a [w] or [wo] to the end of your nick to denote with or without a web policy)
[2008-02-26 13:22:59] <theTownBarber[w]> ours just went up June 07, so we haven’t needed to review yet
[2008-02-26 13:23:07] <Quicksilver[wo]> In building and revising that policy, have any of you found ideas that seemed good that just didn’t work out in practice?
[2008-02-26 13:23:51] =-= cyberchuckTX is now known as cyberchuckTX[w]
[2008-02-26 13:24:21] <theTownBarber[w]> none yet but they haven’t been around too terribly long…
[2008-02-26 13:24:28] <Quicksilver[wo]> (I’m surprised we aren’t seeing more people without policies, unless we’re just way behind the curve, heh)
[2008-02-26 13:25:01] <theTownBarber[w]> creating the policy wasn’t all that difficult to be honest
[2008-02-26 13:25:55] <cyberchuckTX[w]> (admittedly jumping in late): the most obvious web policies are related to accessibility.
[2008-02-26 13:25:56] <Quicksilver[wo]> When you created the policy to begin with, who did you involve in the creation process?
[2008-02-26 13:26:02] <cyberchuckTX[w]> has this topic already been breached?
[2008-02-26 13:26:20] <Quicksilver[wo]> Not yet.
[2008-02-26 13:26:31] <theTownBarber[w]> the cmte I mentioned earlier.
[2008-02-26 13:26:34] <wilsons_apsu[w]> that is what our web policy is lacking. we have no requirements for alt tags, etc…
[2008-02-26 13:26:51] <Quicksilver[wo]> What about that? Do you guys specifically address accessibility, or just defer to state/federal guidelines?
[2008-02-26 13:27:10] <cyberchuckTX[w]> We have short writeups and then refer to state and federal guidelines
[2008-02-26 13:27:12] <theTownBarber[w]> we are currently working on the guidelines
[2008-02-26 13:27:12] <cyberchuckTX[w]> http://www.tamhsc.edu/web/accessibility.html
[2008-02-26 13:27:20] <Quicksilver[wo]> Our state has a specific policy, so once we build ours’ we will probably just use that.
[2008-02-26 13:27:41] <cyberchuckTX[w]> Campus (Texas A&M) does a periodic (I think quarterly) scan for accessibility and sends ratings / grades to all sites on campus.
[2008-02-26 13:28:05] <cyberchuckTX[w]> I point to Texas codes as well as W3C and Federal statutes on our page (cited)
[2008-02-26 13:28:09] <Quicksilver[wo]> How do you compute that?
[2008-02-26 13:28:20] <Quicksilver[wo]> Using a scanner, or manually?
[2008-02-26 13:28:32] <theTownBarber[w]> how do you enforce when someone forgets an alt tag? Do you have to do that, or send it to the page owner?
[2008-02-26 13:28:44] <cyberchuckTX[w]> the “grade” system is built-in to the automated tool (Bobby, or whatever it’s called these days).
[2008-02-26 13:28:51] <theTownBarber[w]> the alt tag was used as a example of course…
[2008-02-26 13:29:40] <theTownBarber[w]> do they run a whole domain through the tool?
[2008-02-26 13:30:05] <Quicksilver[wo]> I know WebXM (the standalone Bobby) has an accessibility component.
[2008-02-26 13:30:18] <Quicksilver[wo]> That would let you scan an entire site.
[2008-02-26 13:30:40] <Quicksilver[wo]> We don’t have it though. However I do scan for alt tags.
[2008-02-26 13:31:03] =-= smkeith is now known as smkeith[wo]
[2008-02-26 13:31:05] <Quicksilver[wo]> Besides accessibility, what general topic areas do your web policies cover?
[2008-02-26 13:31:19] <cyberchuckTX[w]> we also use a CMS (Hannon Hill Cascade) that does accessibilty checking. Primarily alt tags but also enforces table captions.
[2008-02-26 13:31:37] <cyberchuckTX[w]> content editors get warnings when they have missing alts or captions for tables.
[2008-02-26 13:32:00] <wilsons_apsu[w]> we delineate between official and unofficial web pages
[2008-02-26 13:32:13] <theTownBarber[w]> ditto
[2008-02-26 13:32:24] <Quicksilver[wo]> What constitutes unofficial?
[2008-02-26 13:32:42] <theTownBarber[w]> we had some faculty that were big on getting copyright info in there as well
[2008-02-26 13:32:47] <wilsons_apsu[w]> student orgs and personal faculty/staff pages are considered unofficial
[2008-02-26 13:33:49] <theTownBarber[w]> we also had to deliniate between personal (unofficial) and professional (official) pages
[2008-02-26 13:33:57] <theTownBarber[w]> for faculty
[2008-02-26 13:34:19] <cyberchuckTX[w]> in our (internal) policies (not sure if I can publish these just now) we have the concept of roles:
[2008-02-26 13:34:32] |<– woodenr_apsu[w] has left irc.freenode.net ()
[2008-02-26 13:35:00] =-= Quicksilver[wo] has changed the topic to “Round Table Discussion in Progress”
[2008-02-26 13:35:28] <cyberchuckTX[w]> Roles include: information provider, webmaster, web engineer, and site webmasters
[2008-02-26 13:35:39] <cyberchuckTX[w]> in the CMS the roles are: publisher / contributor / approver
[2008-02-26 13:35:55] <wilsons_apsu[w]> we are looking at doing that to identify what departmental content providers should be editing
[2008-02-26 13:36:17] <Quicksilver[wo]> Ditto.
[2008-02-26 13:36:26] <Quicksilver[wo]> Our CMS will be helping with role assignments
[2008-02-26 13:36:31] <cyberchuckTX[w]> defining official roles, which may be directly related to job titles (such as “webmaster”) can help with communicating policies
[2008-02-26 13:37:10] <Quicksilver[wo]> Switching gears a bit (we can come back to the roles stuff shortly) to those of us without policies, are you trying to set one up?
[2008-02-26 13:37:18] <Quicksilver[wo]> I know we will be, once our redesign is done.
[2008-02-26 13:38:19] <Quicksilver[wo]> We plan on getting pretty specific as to control over the front facing site.
[2008-02-26 13:38:41] <cfalz_eup[wo]> Not currently
[2008-02-26 13:38:44] <Quicksilver[wo]> Who edits what, how it is presented, where it should be, etc
[2008-02-26 13:39:10] <Quicksilver[wo]> So are you guys having success without one up there in PA?
[2008-02-26 13:39:23] <wilsons_apsu[w]> to add to that, how many of you really control the whole site? and how many have other college or school webmasters that “know what they are doing”?
[2008-02-26 13:39:39] <Quicksilver[wo]> We really aren’t anymore. It worked for a while, but the needs are getting too big to handle without guidelines.
[2008-02-26 13:39:45] <Quicksilver[wo]> We do, except the portal
[2008-02-26 13:39:58] <cfalz_eup[wo]> We definitly need to revise what we have becuase it is based off of our old CMS … now with the new one in place we need something concrete … however, I have not seen any motion to look at creating a concrete policy
[2008-02-26 13:40:02] <Quicksilver[wo]> The portal is 100% an OIS programmer realm
[2008-02-26 13:40:13] <wilsons_apsu[w]> our portal is under me as well
[2008-02-26 13:40:22] <Quicksilver[wo]> But the front facing site is me.
[2008-02-26 13:40:29] <wilsons_apsu[w]> im in a public relations and marketing office
[2008-02-26 13:40:33] <cfalz_eup[wo]> Our portal doesn’t work yet
[2008-02-26 13:40:43] <Quicksilver[wo]> Marketing now, was OIS a month ago, heh.
[2008-02-26 13:41:07] <theTownBarber[w]> we have a few that do know what they are doing, and more than a few that “think” they know what they are doing
[2008-02-26 13:41:20] <Quicksilver[wo]> See, that’s a huge point of conflict here though. With the new CMS, we need guidelines to determine what gets done by programmers in the portal, or what gets done by me in the CMS
[2008-02-26 13:41:21] <cfalz_eup[wo]> We have not had much problem to what we do have in place which is esentially .. Publications Rules!!
[2008-02-26 13:41:44] <wilsons_apsu[w]> i just see ll of these great college and school sites and think “ours are terrible.”
[2008-02-26 13:42:29] <Quicksilver[wo]> Let’s talk about about coverage.
[2008-02-26 13:42:51] <Quicksilver[wo]> Does web have to adhere to traditional branding guidelines? Or does it get special treatment?
[2008-02-26 13:43:00] <Quicksilver[wo]> (one would hope it gets special treatment)
[2008-02-26 13:43:25] <theTownBarber[w]> it gets the same wordmark as print, but other than that it’s pretty much open
[2008-02-26 13:43:35] <wilsons_apsu[w]> to an extent. we have a small amount of consistency with our publications. but our printed materials will not transfer to the web well.
[2008-02-26 13:43:38] <Quicksilver[wo]> Also, if you have public branding documents posted that you could link for comparison, that’d be great.
[2008-02-26 13:43:48] <Quicksilver[wo]> (unfortunately ours is secured in the portal)
[2008-02-26 13:44:24] <Quicksilver[wo]> theTownBarber: That’s how our new design is looking, same wordmark, but custom logo work and everything else.
[2008-02-26 13:44:52] <theTownBarber[w]> our wordmark comes from a system level (university of Tennessee which include knoxville, martin, chattanooga, memphis)
[2008-02-26 13:44:58] <Quicksilver[wo]> Until now, we’ve been pretty restricted to what we were allowed to do inside branding guidelines.
[2008-02-26 13:45:14] <cfalz_eup[wo]> There is a lot of push to have everything branded with our “Great Things Happen Here” and Tartan look .. including the web .. hence the need to move to a CMS that can enforce a template
[2008-02-26 13:45:25] <theTownBarber[w]> http://future.tennessee.edu/book/
[2008-02-26 13:45:26] <Quicksilver[wo]> Though we were pretty well able to convince them that yellow is a terrible color to build a site on.
[2008-02-26 13:45:48] <theTownBarber[w]> there are tv spots there, print, wordmarks, etc…
[2008-02-26 13:46:25] <Quicksilver[wo]> That is an awesome branding site.
[2008-02-26 13:46:27] <wilsons_apsu[w]> we keep most of our branding guidelines separate from policy
[2008-02-26 13:46:57] <Quicksilver[wo]> Yeah, our branding policy is totally separate from web documents, but some places the branding stuff can overrule other things.
[2008-02-26 13:48:03] <Quicksilver[wo]> Okay, so let’s open up the table for the last 15 or so minutes.
[2008-02-26 13:49:11] <Quicksilver[wo]> I’d be interested in how long it took to work up your policies?
[2008-02-26 13:49:23] <wilsons_apsu[w]> to what extent do you all require a certain header or elements to your department’s websites? or do they have to completely follow your main template?
[2008-02-26 13:49:32] <Quicksilver[wo]> Was it a slow process, or did it move through committees pretty fast?
[2008-02-26 13:49:47] <ceas_[w]> We “have to” follow the main template
[2008-02-26 13:49:59] <theTownBarber[w]> it took about 6 months, but that was because we didn’t meet that often
[2008-02-26 13:50:02] <Quicksilver[wo]> wilsons_apsu: The plan is that there will be a main “theme” with several options of sub templates
[2008-02-26 13:50:17] <Quicksilver[wo]> Essentially the same header and footer regardless to a point.
[2008-02-26 13:50:33] <Quicksilver[wo]> My idea is that below a certain point, departments have a little more free will
[2008-02-26 13:50:46] <Quicksilver[wo]> But the top layers, everything will be marketing controlled.
[2008-02-26 13:50:49] <theTownBarber[w]> we plan to have three different templates, all with the same header.
[2008-02-26 13:51:18] <wilsons_apsu[w]> after the initiating VP approves the policy, it would go to the policy approval committee. i would guess that it is about a 2-3 month process.
[2008-02-26 13:51:21] <theTownBarber[w]> but different style sheets to the rest ala css zen garden type of thing
[2008-02-26 13:51:31] <cfalz_eup[wo]> We have enforced Templates all based on our Branded Homepage .. they all have a header / footer .. and thier only option for pages is how many columns they want (one, two, or three). We also enforce Page Title / Navigation / Crumbtrail …
[2008-02-26 13:51:51] <Quicksilver[wo]> If a student switches between the main art page and the mathematics page, we want them to get the same info in the same places. Below that point, art or math could have freedom to customize content
[2008-02-26 13:52:05] <Quicksilver[wo]> What about exceptions?
[2008-02-26 13:52:18] <wilsons_apsu[w]> i have a hard time even getting our art dept to put our logo on their page!
[2008-02-26 13:52:20] <cyberchuckTX[w]> have to scoot now .. look forward to the transcript.
[2008-02-26 13:52:25] <Quicksilver[wo]> Do you all have processes to evaluate if something deserves to be given special treatment?
[2008-02-26 13:52:31] <cfalz_eup[wo]> At the moment we don’t allow for any exceptions to that
[2008-02-26 13:52:34] <theTownBarber[w]> if they can prove their content doesn’t “fit” the template, we will work to design one that will
[2008-02-26 13:52:35] <Quicksilver[wo]> (thanks for stopping in chuck)
[2008-02-26 13:52:48] <cyberchuckTX[w]> However, one point about our policy definitions: it was imperative for us to provide a glossary of terms to all concerned before going to create the policies.
[2008-02-26 13:53:01] <Quicksilver[wo]> Glossary, good point.
[2008-02-26 13:53:04] <cyberchuckTX[w]> and some reasonable 10,000-foot tutorials on “what is the web and why do we care”?
[2008-02-26 13:53:14] <theTownBarber[w]> agreed on the glossary… ours is in the policy:)
[2008-02-26 13:53:14] <cfalz_eup[wo]> However, student Orginaizations all go on aux.edinboro.edu and are not subject to those rules
[2008-02-26 13:53:18] <wilsons_apsu[w]> capital campaigns, athletics, etc… are exceptions.
[2008-02-26 13:53:38] <cyberchuckTX[w]> all 4 now .. look forward to more of these chats! Thanks for organizing …
[2008-02-26 13:53:41] <–| cyberchuckTX[w] has left #uwebd
[2008-02-26 13:54:16] <cfalz_eup[wo]> Athletics is currently an Exception for us as well .. but we are looking to reign them back in soon
[2008-02-26 13:54:35] <Quicksilver[wo]> Is athletics its own monster for most of you (it is here)
[2008-02-26 13:54:59] <wilsons_apsu[w]> yes. they contract a third party vendor for their site. i had some say in colors and graphics, but thats about it.
[2008-02-26 13:55:01] <theTownBarber[w]> we don’t have athletics, whew…
[2008-02-26 13:55:04] <cfalz_eup[wo]> Currently yes .. they even have thier own domain and hosting
[2008-02-26 13:55:17] <Quicksilver[wo]> What about domain stuff?
[2008-02-26 13:55:32] <Quicksilver[wo]> If some group wants to register their own domain for something?
[2008-02-26 13:55:33] <cfalz_eup[wo]> http://www.gofightingscots.com/
[2008-02-26 13:55:39] <wilsons_apsu[w]> they have separate hosting and two .com domains
[2008-02-26 13:55:44] <Quicksilver[wo]> Or wants a subdomain
[2008-02-26 13:56:14] <theTownBarber[w]> we pretty much do what they want on the domains and subs
[2008-02-26 13:56:28] <Quicksilver[wo]> Do you have anything to say “this is a valid usage of a subdomain, this is a good reason to have a domain?”
[2008-02-26 13:56:29] <wilsons_apsu[w]> we base subdomains on major needs….admissions micro sites, marketing intiatives, etc… depts. dont get them.
[2008-02-26 13:56:31] <cfalz_eup[wo]> we are currently looking at what to do for subdomains .. under IIS it was realy easy but now that we moved to DotCMS it is not so simple … but they promise next version it will be
[2008-02-26 13:56:54] <Quicksilver[wo]> (version 1.6 or 2.0?)
[2008-02-26 13:57:02] <cfalz_eup[wo]> (1.6)
[2008-02-26 13:57:08] <Quicksilver[wo]> (neat)
[2008-02-26 13:57:14] <cfalz_eup[wo]> (very)
[2008-02-26 13:57:51] <Quicksilver[wo]> I’ve been playing with the idea that departments get subdomains, and that’s their little world to develop as the want
[2008-02-26 13:58:02] <Quicksilver[wo]> That way, it’s clear anything on www is marketing
[2008-02-26 13:58:24] <Quicksilver[wo]> Anything on a subdomain is controlled by said group
[2008-02-26 13:58:25] <theTownBarber[w]> we have very little that is off www
[2008-02-26 13:58:37] <cfalz_eup[wo]> But none-the less .. we are looking at giving most departments the option to use their own subdomain … it would just be a virtual host point to their same directory .. so art.edinboro.edu would be the same as edinboro.edu/departments/art
[2008-02-26 13:58:52] <wilsons_apsu[w]> we have looked at separating student orgs and faculty pages into their own subs
[2008-02-26 13:59:15] <theTownBarber[w]> we are looking into that as well, kinda like people.utmem.edu
[2008-02-26 13:59:35] <Quicksilver[wo]> That’s a concern here as well as we redesign.
[2008-02-26 13:59:48] <Quicksilver[wo]> Organizations I just planned on dumping into a generic folder.
[2008-02-26 14:00:01] <theTownBarber[w]> all those pages would be deemed “unofficial” and they can pretty much do what they want
[2008-02-26 14:00:01] <cfalz_eup[wo]> Basically for us .. everything on edinboro.edu (currently cms.edinboro.edu) will be forced to use the CMS system and therefore will fall under any policy we have for that …
[2008-02-26 14:00:05] <wilsons_apsu[w]> can i ask university size for you all?
[2008-02-26 14:00:16] <Quicksilver[wo]> ~7000
[2008-02-26 14:00:31] <cfalz_eup[wo]> Everything that is not in the CMS or doesn’t want to follow the rules will go under aux.edinboro.edu/org
[2008-02-26 14:00:42] <theTownBarber[w]> ~2500 students (health sciences)
[2008-02-26 14:00:43] <cfalz_eup[wo]> 8K
[2008-02-26 14:00:52] <wilsons_apsu[w]> 10,000
[2008-02-26 14:01:01] <Quicksilver[wo]> (at this point, the roundtable is officially over. Thanks to everyone for coming, and feel free to drop in any time, there are always several of us here. For those still here, feel free to remain and discuss)

Using Social Networking Tools on Campus

[2008-02-12 13:00:19] <TheQuicksilver> So, roll call. Who all is awake?
[2008-02-12 13:00:25] <bradjward> Brad Ward – Butler University
[2008-02-12 13:00:32] <jdpierce> I’m here!
[2008-02-12 13:00:37] <TheQuicksilver> Michael Fienen – Pittsburg State University
[2008-02-12 13:00:50] <jdpierce> Right – Jonathan Pierce Linfield College
[2008-02-12 13:01:06] <Aaron> Aaron Rester, U. of Chicago Law School
[2008-02-12 13:01:20] <jljohnstone> Jason Johnstone – Stephen F. Austin State University
[2008-02-12 13:01:40] <mib_wb2q6li1> Margi Pomeroy, Alfred University
[2008-02-12 13:01:50] <Aaron> Who’s the webhamster? that’s funny
[2008-02-12 13:02:03] <TheQuicksilver> Thanks to everyone who was able to make it in this afternoon.
[2008-02-12 13:02:11] <TheQuicksilver> Sorry that I was unable to put together an agenda
[2008-02-12 13:02:22] <TheQuicksilver> I overestimated my time budget the past week
[2008-02-12 13:02:25] –>| mcstevem (n=chatzill@b2200-14-013.URel.Berkeley.EDU) has joined #uwebd
[2008-02-12 13:02:34] <TheQuicksilver> Welcome!
[2008-02-12 13:02:46] <TheQuicksilver> Anyway, we’ll just wing it.
[2008-02-12 13:02:51] <bradjward> I think the webhamster just keeps the server running?
[2008-02-12 13:03:03] <TheQuicksilver> I suspect we’re all schizophrenic enough to get some good stuff going.
[2008-02-12 13:03:15] <TheQuicksilver> If nothing else, we’ll have webhamster fights to the death.
[2008-02-12 13:03:32] <jdpierce> I’m changing my job title to “Webhamster”
[2008-02-12 13:04:00] <TheQuicksilver> Oh, and before I get too far along, is anyone over in Pibb?
[2008-02-12 13:04:14] <TheQuicksilver> No, doesn’t look like it.
[2008-02-12 13:04:17] <TheQuicksilver> Okay.
[2008-02-12 13:04:26] <TheQuicksilver> So, social networking tools on campus
[2008-02-12 13:04:27] <bradjward> topic clarification: literally using these tools on campus, or using them to recruit, etc?
[2008-02-12 13:04:45] <TheQuicksilver> Either!
[2008-02-12 13:04:49] <bradjward> cool
[2008-02-12 13:05:00] <TheQuicksilver> Let’s start by seeing what and how people are doing things currently
[2008-02-12 13:05:14] <Aaron> format suggestion:
[2008-02-12 13:05:18] <Aaron> go in a round
[2008-02-12 13:05:23] <bradjward> 2nd
[2008-02-12 13:05:30] <TheQuicksilver> Sounds goode
[2008-02-12 13:05:34] <TheQuicksilver> Good as well.
[2008-02-12 13:05:42] <bradjward> alphabetical, start with Aaron?
[2008-02-12 13:05:50] <Aaron> sure
[2008-02-12 13:06:23] <Aaron> so far, we have a Facebook page… looking up URL
[2008-02-12 13:07:01] <Aaron> argh sorry for the slowness — too many tabs open
[2008-02-12 13:07:18] <Aaron> http://www.facebook.com/pages/Chicago-IL/The-University-of-Chicago-Law-School/9183556279
[2008-02-12 13:07:39] <Aaron> We are using it to a) provide a tech-savvy face to our prospective students
[2008-02-12 13:07:54] <Aaron> b) promote events to current students and local alums
[2008-02-12 13:08:02] <Ceas_Webhamster> oh hey, roll call (late): Sam Kallen – Western Michigan University
[2008-02-12 13:08:14] <Aaron> c) provide another venue for our blogs and podcasts
[2008-02-12 13:08:24] –>| xyzzy123 (n=w0009549@dennen.wheatonma.edu) has joined #uwebd
[2008-02-12 13:08:37] <TheQuicksilver> Who is in charge of its content?
[2008-02-12 13:08:38] <Aaron> d) maintain connection with recent alums
[2008-02-12 13:08:47] <Aaron> mostly me
[2008-02-12 13:09:04] <Aaron> our Asst. Dean for communications also
[2008-02-12 13:09:09] –>| theTownBarber (i=84c0011d@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-ad24ea1f685731ec) has joined #uwebd
[2008-02-12 13:09:31] <Aaron> as you can see we’ve been slow in adding new content — the time limit on video is a pian
[2008-02-12 13:09:35] <Aaron> i mean pain
[2008-02-12 13:09:36] <TheQuicksilver> (welcome folks, we were just getting started)
[2008-02-12 13:09:38] <jdw5> late roll call: Jason Woodward – Cornell University School of Hotel Administration
[2008-02-12 13:10:01] <Aaron> we also have a LinkedIn Group that is more of an experiment than anything else
[2008-02-12 13:10:18] <Aaron> we can’t see much concrete benefit to LinkedIn
[2008-02-12 13:10:36] <Aaron> but it’s a way to keep alums connected to the school, so…
[2008-02-12 13:10:51] <TheQuicksilver> For the late arrivals, Aaron is discussing the UofC’s Law School’s Facebook and LinkedIn efforts.
[2008-02-12 13:10:59] <Aaron> anyway, that’s about it for us at the moment
[2008-02-12 13:11:11] <Aaron> brad?
[2008-02-12 13:11:12] <bradjward> Aaron – what is the time limit on video for Facebook?
[2008-02-12 13:11:31] <Aaron> I believe it’s 15 minutes (similar to youtube)…
[2008-02-12 13:11:36] <bradjward> Ok, cool
[2008-02-12 13:11:42] <Aaron> …but somehow I snuck an hour long video on there
[2008-02-12 13:11:48] <bradjward> Alright, here are some social presences we are attempting:
[2008-02-12 13:12:00] <bradjward> (and by We I mean I)
[2008-02-12 13:12:03] <bradjward> Facebook: University Page at http://www.facebook.com/pages/Indianapolis-IN/Butler-University/8754066468
[2008-02-12 13:12:08] <bradjward> Facebook: Butler Bloggers Page at http://www.facebook.com/pages/Butler-Bloggers/7063218406
[2008-02-12 13:12:13] <bradjward> Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/butlersports (currently inactive)
[2008-02-12 13:12:17] <bradjward> Pixish: getting student’s images for our online sites at http://www.pixish.com/assignments/29
[2008-02-12 13:12:21] <bradjward> BUBloggers and BUForums at http://go.butler.edu/cs
[2008-02-12 13:12:24] <bradjward> YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/butlerbloggers Using Flip Ultra camcorders for video
[2008-02-12 13:12:49] <bradjward> With cross-content (i.e. Videos go to YouTube, then Facebook, and then embedded on BUBloggers’ blogs)
[2008-02-12 13:13:12] –>| mib_dlhtp4rr (i=a81acde5@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-88f8a9179953c1f6) has joined #uwebd
[2008-02-12 13:13:14] <bradjward> Twitter fell to the side, no utilization by prospective students ( I work in Admission Office, btw)
[2008-02-12 13:13:38] <bradjward> Facebook has been moderately successful, but I haven’t been able to get approval to actually promote it from a University standpoint so it’s all word of mouth
[2008-02-12 13:13:51] <bradjward> Bloggers/Forums are going well, and Pixish Contest is going well (just started yesterday)
[2008-02-12 13:14:01] <bradjward> and that’s about where we are at
[2008-02-12 13:14:08] <Aaron> can i interject ?
[2008-02-12 13:14:10] <bradjward> sure
[2008-02-12 13:14:17] <kcwebgirl> i hope i’m in the right place because it is taking me forever to figure this out
[2008-02-12 13:14:41] <Aaron> when we launched the facebook page, we sent out an email blast to current students and to select alums
[2008-02-12 13:14:44] <Aaron> that was back in december
[2008-02-12 13:15:00] <Aaron> since then, we’ve been gaining about 5 fans a week
[2008-02-12 13:15:22] <Aaron> have you noticed your current fans sending new ones to you?
[2008-02-12 13:15:34] <bradjward> That’s awesome that you can actively promote, our administration says that they don’t want me using it really
[2008-02-12 13:16:07] <Aaron> do they have specific reasons?
[2008-02-12 13:16:09] <bradjward> Yeah, I initially invited 2 co-workers and my 8 bloggers (3 of the 10 joined), and from there it was just members inviting other members, or students seeing it on each other’s profile and adding it as well
[2008-02-12 13:16:13] <bradjward> Scared.
[2008-02-12 13:16:15] <kcwebgirl> late roll call Nourisha from Kansas City U of Med and Biosciences
[2008-02-12 13:16:32] <Aaron> scared of what?
[2008-02-12 13:16:34] <bradjward> No reasons at all, but with the Bloggers I have let them promote on their own, and they are at about 30 friends after a month
[2008-02-12 13:16:52] <bradjward> I wish I knew. They just don’t like the idea of officially recruiting through these sites, it’s a struggle.
[2008-02-12 13:17:10] <Aaron> like so many things, i guess it comes down to personnel
[2008-02-12 13:17:21] <bradjward> Check out this blog post if you have their blessing: http://squaredpeg.com/index.php/2008/02/05/rapleaf-wants-to-help-web-20-you/ You might be able to really get some good Facebook Alumni traffic with their help
[2008-02-12 13:18:01] <Aaron> interesting
[2008-02-12 13:18:07] <TheQuicksilver> I’m familiar with Rapleaf
[2008-02-12 13:18:15] <TheQuicksilver> Interesting idea they have.
[2008-02-12 13:18:27] <bradjward> We can pass it on to the next person for sake of time
[2008-02-12 13:18:36] <bradjward> feel free to email me at bjward@butler.edu with any questions, etc
[2008-02-12 13:18:57] <TheQuicksilver> Next I think is Ceas_Webmaster
[2008-02-12 13:19:04] <Ceas_Webhamster> woah what?
[2008-02-12 13:19:09] <Ceas_Webhamster> what is next for me?
[2008-02-12 13:19:17] <TheQuicksilver> (for those who weren’t here earlier, we are going around in ABC order)
[2008-02-12 13:19:24] <Ceas_Webhamster> oh, telling what we’re doing?
[2008-02-12 13:19:25] <Aaron> bsteere?
[2008-02-12 13:19:25] <bradjward> “Let’s start by seeing what and how people are doing things currently”
[2008-02-12 13:19:26] <TheQuicksilver> What kind of social stuff are you guys doing
[2008-02-12 13:19:39] <Ceas_Webhamster> oh uh we aren’t doing jack, man
[2008-02-12 13:19:46] <TheQuicksilver> (I don’t think bsteere is present)
[2008-02-12 13:19:48] <bradjward> Next? haha j/k
[2008-02-12 13:20:00] <Ceas_Webhamster> I think someone in recruitment is considering “Student Ambassadors” to write “blogs”
[2008-02-12 13:20:02] <bsteere> Sorry…not really here
[2008-02-12 13:20:08] <bsteere> But we’re not really doing anything either
[2008-02-12 13:20:18] <TheQuicksilver> (bsteere: no worries)
[2008-02-12 13:20:26] <Aaron> quick question
[2008-02-12 13:20:27] <Ceas_Webhamster> the problem is, there’s no one to coordinate any efforts
[2008-02-12 13:20:30] <jdw5> alphabetical by what? nick? school? real first? real last? password?
[2008-02-12 13:20:37] <bradjward> by nickname
[2008-02-12 13:20:40] <jdw5> k
[2008-02-12 13:20:46] <Ceas_Webhamster> arron: ?
[2008-02-12 13:20:46] <TheQuicksilver> Nick is easiest
[2008-02-12 13:20:56] <Aaron> are we considering blogs as “social networking”?
[2008-02-12 13:21:03] =-= jdw5 is now known as aardvark_jdw5
[2008-02-12 13:21:08] <TheQuicksilver> Sure
[2008-02-12 13:21:20] <Ceas_Webhamster> Me, I am not. I’m just saying, that’s the closest thing we have. And we don’t even actually have them
[2008-02-12 13:21:20] <TheQuicksilver> Blogs represent a person to person interactive layer
[2008-02-12 13:21:38] <Aaron> in that case
[2008-02-12 13:21:40] <kcwebgirl> i think blogs are more content generation
[2008-02-12 13:21:50] <Ceas_Webhamster> I tried getting a Wiki set up on campus, but nobody really was interested
[2008-02-12 13:21:55] <Aaron> I shoule mention our faculty blog: http://uchicagolaw.typepad.com
[2008-02-12 13:22:16] <aardvark_jdw5> eh
[2008-02-12 13:22:19] =-= aardvark_jdw5 is now known as jdw5
[2008-02-12 13:22:28] <nombrecinq> when’s the meeting start PST?
[2008-02-12 13:22:30] <nombrecinq> noon?
[2008-02-12 13:22:33] <kcwebgirl> and our blogs aren’t exactly interactive.
[2008-02-12 13:22:41] <TheQuicksilver> (1:00PM CST)
[2008-02-12 13:22:45] <kcwebgirl> you forgot me on the roll call list
[2008-02-12 13:22:48] <xyzzy123> hello
[2008-02-12 13:22:52] <jdw5> so re: no one being interested: I think it comes down to the same thing it usually comes down to in every other situation: compelling content
[2008-02-12 13:23:01] <Ceas_Webhamster> kcwebgirl: you’re coming through as <PibbRelay>
[2008-02-12 13:23:04] <xyzzy123> IRC people cannot see Pibb people.
[2008-02-12 13:23:04] <jdw5> you mentioned no one used the wiki
[2008-02-12 13:23:19] <Ceas_Webhamster> jdw5: I totally agree
[2008-02-12 13:23:20] <bradjward> Sorry kcwebgirl, you show as PibbRelay to me
[2008-02-12 13:23:25] <jdw5> did it have a seed of compelling content already?
[2008-02-12 13:23:33] <Ceas_Webhamster> Well, I use it
[2008-02-12 13:23:34] <Ceas_Webhamster> http://www.ceas.wmich.edu/~s5kallen/wiki/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
[2008-02-12 13:23:40] <Ceas_Webhamster> I document almost all my work on it
[2008-02-12 13:23:46] <Ceas_Webhamster> (what little I do, that is)
[2008-02-12 13:23:46] <jdw5> not much of web 2.0 falls under “if you build it they will come”
[2008-02-12 13:23:56] <jdw5> but do others need to see that?
[2008-02-12 13:23:56] <TheQuicksilver> (luckyface is also in Pibb currently)
[2008-02-12 13:24:00] <jdw5> and edit it?
[2008-02-12 13:24:10] <kcwebgirl> that sucks. so does that mean i can’t read everything that is being said
[2008-02-12 13:24:13] <jdw5> ours didn’t catch on until cross-unit teams started using it
[2008-02-12 13:24:20] <luckyface> hi there…this is <> aka saraheva from the chicago school
[2008-02-12 13:24:32] <jdw5> I used it in a class, too, for discussions, etc
[2008-02-12 13:24:41] <luckyface>
[2008-02-12 13:24:57] <nombrecinq> is 1 PM CST noon in PST?
[2008-02-12 13:25:01] <nombrecinq> jesus christ
[2008-02-12 13:25:10] <Ceas_Webhamster> I think that a Wiki is a really good idea for a school to have, for faculty, students, support, and anybody.
[2008-02-12 13:25:13] <theTownBarber> 11 am pst
[2008-02-12 13:25:16] <jdw5> we’re using a blog for that this semester (different class) and it just isn’t as conducive to conversation as the wiki was
[2008-02-12 13:25:17] <nombrecinq> oh ok
[2008-02-12 13:25:19] <nombrecinq> cool
[2008-02-12 13:25:44] <Ceas_Webhamster> but anyway, if you want to look at the Wiki I made, it’s here: http://www.ceas.wmich.edu/~s5kallen/wiki/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
[2008-02-12 13:25:48] <Ceas_Webhamster> and that’s all I really have to say
[2008-02-12 13:25:50] <Ceas_Webhamster>
[2008-02-12 13:25:55] <Ceas_Webhamster> <next>
[2008-02-12 13:26:08] <jdw5> heh ok – I’ll go
[2008-02-12 13:26:11] <Interrobang> is that me or
[2008-02-12 13:26:15] <Interrobang> oh sorry
[2008-02-12 13:26:18] <bradjward> gsbodine?
[2008-02-12 13:26:19] <jdw5> I use facebook at work
[2008-02-12 13:26:23] <TheQuicksilver> (Heh, I think ABC order is failing)
[2008-02-12 13:26:34] <jdw5> that’s about all the social networking we do at the Hotel School, to my knowledge
[2008-02-12 13:26:43] <jdw5> admissions might do some stuff on their own
[2008-02-12 13:26:57] <Interrobang> Here’s my late roll call: jody benedict. St. John Fisher College
[2008-02-12 13:27:01] <Interrobang> We’re not doing much here
[2008-02-12 13:27:18] <Interrobang> a couple admissions counselors have been doing a myspace & a facebook page kind of on the sly
[2008-02-12 13:27:26] <Interrobang> I don’t know how successful that’s been
[2008-02-12 13:27:45] <TheQuicksilver> In the interests of time, let’s jump ahead a tad.
[2008-02-12 13:27:50] <Interrobang> the administration is getting more comfortable with the idea of social networking tools and just asked me to set up a ning site
[2008-02-12 13:27:57] <Interrobang> but no one will maintain it
[2008-02-12 13:28:04] <Interrobang> the end
[2008-02-12 13:28:06] <TheQuicksilver> Of those using tools (Facebook, MySpace, etc), what are you finding to be successful?
[2008-02-12 13:28:27] <jdpierce> Facebook
[2008-02-12 13:28:37] <jdpierce> It’s just happening around us.
[2008-02-12 13:28:43] <jdpierce> Our Academic Advising office is setting up a Facebook group for incoming students. Nothing to show on that yet. It was just green-lighted. I’m happy because this is a top-down choice.
[2008-02-12 13:28:50] <TheQuicksilver> Facebook seems to be the most widely implemented site so far.
[2008-02-12 13:29:08] <kcwebgirl> kcwebgirl: our school set up a facebook page but all social networking sites are blocked on campus so it’s completely counter productive for building relationships with current students
[2008-02-12 13:29:18] <theTownBarber> another vote for Facebook. that seems to be where the most people are
[2008-02-12 13:29:18] <Aaron> whaaa?
[2008-02-12 13:29:26] <jdpierce> That’s really odd!
[2008-02-12 13:29:30] <Aaron> why are they blocked?
[2008-02-12 13:29:41] <jljohnstone> any facebook, myspace, etc. efforts here are all “unofficial”
[2008-02-12 13:29:44] <TheQuicksilver> So clearly blocking social networking would inhibit it’s value, heh
[2008-02-12 13:30:02] <kcwebgirl> kcwebgirl: but it is doing okay for interested students who have been accepted
[2008-02-12 13:30:03] <kcwebgirl> kcwebgirl: because our IT staff is special
[2008-02-12 13:30:05] <TheQuicksilver> (for the record, we have notihng outside of a couple student blogs)
[2008-02-12 13:30:05] <jdpierce> Opps my 11
[2008-02-12 13:30:13] <jdpierce> :30 is here
[2008-02-12 13:30:21] <jdpierce> have to run. Ta!
[2008-02-12 13:30:26] <Ceas_Webhamster> bye
[2008-02-12 13:30:39] <TheQuicksilver> (Thanks for stopping in, transcript will be available later)
[2008-02-12 13:30:53] <Aaron> Nourisha…
[2008-02-12 13:31:08] <Aaron> how does the administration feel about social networking?
[2008-02-12 13:31:27] <bradjward> I’m with jljohnstone, I do it all ‘on the side’
[2008-02-12 13:31:37] <jdw5> I don’t think ours has an opinion one way or the other
[2008-02-12 13:31:43] <TheQuicksilver> What have some of you tried that was just a flat out failure?
[2008-02-12 13:31:49] <jdw5> if it is an effective marketing tool then all the better
[2008-02-12 13:31:50] <bradjward> Twitter.
[2008-02-12 13:31:56] <kcwebgirl> i’m back
[2008-02-12 13:32:05] <bradjward> Good for personal use, not effective for recruiting/informative purposes
[2008-02-12 13:32:06] <kcwebgirl> got disconnected for a second
[2008-02-12 13:32:12] <bradjward> at least in my instance
[2008-02-12 13:32:18] <jdw5> btw, question: the terms “success” and “failure” have been used: what metrics are you using?
[2008-02-12 13:32:23] <gsbodine> Oops. Sorry. I am only partially paying attention.
[2008-02-12 13:32:37] <bradjward> web 2.0 metrics vary by the site, in my opinion
[2008-02-12 13:32:40] <kcwebgirl> kcwebgirl is nourisha
[2008-02-12 13:32:51] <kcwebgirl> who is aaron?
[2008-02-12 13:32:58] <TheQuicksilver> jdw5: Let’s just say eyeballs. Are people seeing it, and bringing in others to see it.
[2008-02-12 13:33:08] <jdw5> brad: yup – so what are people basing their “success” or “failure” assessments on?
[2008-02-12 13:33:11] <Aaron> Aaron Rester from Uchicago Law
[2008-02-12 13:33:16] <jdw5> seeing != successful
[2008-02-12 13:33:26] <bradjward> For me and Twitter, I base ’success’ on the number of followers
[2008-02-12 13:33:31] <jdw5> lots of people have seen my accident pictures
[2008-02-12 13:33:35] <jdw5> I wouldn’t call it a success
[2008-02-12 13:33:38] <bradjward> And I would say same for Facebook, # of ‘fans’
[2008-02-12 13:33:49] <bradjward> For YouTube, # of views
[2008-02-12 13:33:49] –>| cyberchuckTX (n=chatzill@209.21.118.187) has joined #uwebd
[2008-02-12 13:33:55] <Aaron> i think it’s hard to name any metrics at this point
[2008-02-12 13:33:59] <bradjward> But then, how many views is success? how many fans?
[2008-02-12 13:34:02] <TheQuicksilver> Heh. Fair enough. It’s very hard to approach that with any baseline metric
[2008-02-12 13:34:08] <TheQuicksilver> So
[2008-02-12 13:34:09] <Aaron> i mean even if you can track all these things
[2008-02-12 13:34:12] <TheQuicksilver> Let’s say this
[2008-02-12 13:34:12] <jdw5> ok, sounds good – as long as everyone’s on the same page re: definitions of success / failure
[2008-02-12 13:34:17] –>| NWells (n=chatzill@204.185.73.111) has joined #uwebd
[2008-02-12 13:34:22] <TheQuicksilver> Is it good enough that you still put effort into it?
[2008-02-12 13:34:32] <cyberchuckTX> yes, the effort is worth it.
[2008-02-12 13:34:34] <bradjward> That’s also a good thought
[2008-02-12 13:34:38] <NWells> i’ve switched to the IRC
[2008-02-12 13:34:39] <TheQuicksilver> Or, like brad and Twitter, was it just something to dump and move on.
[2008-02-12 13:34:42] <jdw5> yup, agreed
[2008-02-12 13:34:42] <cyberchuckTX> ANY statistics are useful at some point, IMHO
[2008-02-12 13:34:46] <Aaron> our “pilot project” time is 1 year
[2008-02-12 13:34:51] <NWells> pibb is too slow
[2008-02-12 13:34:59] <cyberchuckTX> ?pibb?
[2008-02-12 13:35:00] <jdw5> chuck: I wouldn’t necessarily agree with that
[2008-02-12 13:35:01] <Aaron> if we see growth in what we’re doing = success
[2008-02-12 13:35:12] <TheQuicksilver> (Pibb is kind of slow, but useful for it’s RSS)
[2008-02-12 13:35:21] <cyberchuckTX> well, I have to deal with upper management, convincing them as to why we should put in the effort.
[2008-02-12 13:35:26] <bradjward> I have been tracking a Facebook group using Google Docs, and hopefully will have meaningful metrics to pull out of it by August http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pjG19CBpNu8c_OeZfyk9WKg
[2008-02-12 13:35:32] <jdw5> I’d like to hear things like “a bunch of prospects contacted us because they found us on FB”
[2008-02-12 13:35:35] <cyberchuckTX> Saying ” because I want to chat with my friends online ” doesn’t cut it.
[2008-02-12 13:35:46] <jdw5> or “some alumni decided to give this year because we spammed them through myspace”
[2008-02-12 13:35:54] <cyberchuckTX> saying “I have stats saying that 5000 potential students visited my Facebook account” is MUCH more convincing.
[2008-02-12 13:36:14] <bradjward> Not quite ’social networking’, but is anyone using Zinch.com?
[2008-02-12 13:36:17] <TheQuicksilver> So, when talking to management, how are people selling the success or failure of a try, and how long do you give it?
[2008-02-12 13:36:18] <Aaron> unfortunately FB’s insights don’t offer that stat
[2008-02-12 13:36:22] <TheQuicksilver> Negative on Zinch.com
[2008-02-12 13:36:33] <cyberchuckTX> yes, tying social networking to attract and engage alumni is very important.
[2008-02-12 13:36:58] <NWells> we use imodules for our alumni social networking. not much success
[2008-02-12 13:36:58] <cyberchuckTX> we (at the health science center at TAMU) haven’t done the selling yet.
[2008-02-12 13:37:08] <Aaron> my question is how do we know we’re “engaging” them
[2008-02-12 13:37:10] <cyberchuckTX> But TAMU has (main university). Not sure of where they are in the process, though.
[2008-02-12 13:37:29] <cyberchuckTX> we’re “engaging” them by announcing events online via facebook/myspace.
[2008-02-12 13:37:42] <cyberchuckTX> or pointing to press releases about things happening at the U.
[2008-02-12 13:37:44] <TheQuicksilver> I believe our Alumni are also on iModules. I have no stats though.
[2008-02-12 13:37:54] <jdw5> chuck: I think that’s one of the most effective uses of the medium so far
[2008-02-12 13:37:54] <Aaron> but that doesn’t mean it’s having any effect on giving/participation
[2008-02-12 13:37:55] <cyberchuckTX> or research activities.
[2008-02-12 13:38:12] <jdw5> as an alum I _love_ hearing about CEN events, etc
[2008-02-12 13:38:14] <cyberchuckTX> yes, it is hard to measure the direct effect on donations, true.
[2008-02-12 13:38:15] <Aaron> i.e. what admin really cares about
[2008-02-12 13:38:29] <bradjward> For me, having all of these online presences are just additional touch points through the recruitment funnel. I can’t point at YouTube and say THAT brought in 75 recruits, but I believe that by enhancing their perceptions of the university through different sites, we can yield more students.
[2008-02-12 13:38:32] <cyberchuckTX> [ aaron] agreed entirely.
[2008-02-12 13:39:08] <theTownBarber> any publicity is better than none at all, right???
[2008-02-12 13:39:10] <NWells> we have two student group videos on youtube that bring about 40 visitors to our site each month
[2008-02-12 13:39:14] <cyberchuckTX> another example (not sure if social networking sites were used explicitlly, but I can find out): minority recruitment.
[2008-02-12 13:39:21] <theTownBarber> why not go to these sites?
[2008-02-12 13:39:31] <cyberchuckTX> Recently TAMU was listed as one of the top schools for increasing minority enrollments.
[2008-02-12 13:39:40] <bradjward> for minority recruitment, I am having huge success with zinch.com
[2008-02-12 13:39:47] <jdw5> brad: good point – maybe this medium doesn’t _increase_ “participation”, but perhaps we must participate so as to not _reduce_ “participation”
[2008-02-12 13:39:48] <NWells> the university has yet to publish any videos on youtube though
[2008-02-12 13:39:49] <cyberchuckTX> I’ll have to check zinch.com. Thanks for the pointer.
[2008-02-12 13:39:57] <cyberchuckTX> anyone else using iTunesU?
[2008-02-12 13:40:05] <TheQuicksilver> What is it about minority recruitment that you think is impacted well by social networking?
[2008-02-12 13:40:11] <theTownBarber> no on itunesu but would like to
[2008-02-12 13:40:19] <bradjward> No, but at my last university Yes
[2008-02-12 13:40:20] <cyberchuckTX> TAMU (main campus) has it now, we (health science center) are gearing up.
[2008-02-12 13:40:28] <TheQuicksilver> Also no on iTunesU, they never return inquiries to me.
[2008-02-12 13:40:33] <bradjward> iTunesU is another classic example of no metrics available
[2008-02-12 13:40:39] <cyberchuckTX> Apple has been pretty good on the support end of things.
[2008-02-12 13:40:41] <NWells> not on itunes but i’ve seen some really great examples of schools doing it well
[2008-02-12 13:41:03] <Aaron> re: itunesU – our central Uni folks are supposedly working on it
[2008-02-12 13:41:13] <cyberchuckTX> We attended a seminar that they’re doing around the country (we had one in December at Univ North Texas) entitled “IT preparations for iTunesU”.
[2008-02-12 13:41:16] <cyberchuckTX> it was quite good.
[2008-02-12 13:41:17] <Aaron> not sure how long it will take to launch though
[2008-02-12 13:41:23] <TheQuicksilver> From the sound of it, it seems everyone is either gearing social tools towards prospective or graduated students, agreed?
[2008-02-12 13:41:37] <TheQuicksilver> No one really uses them to reinforce current student populations it sounds like.
[2008-02-12 13:41:38] <theTownBarber> anyone besides uc berkeley posting lectures on youtube
[2008-02-12 13:41:49] <bradjward> Seems to be the case Michael
[2008-02-12 13:41:55] <Aaron> i’m trying to target current students, actually
[2008-02-12 13:42:04] <Aaron> they em to get short shrift
[2008-02-12 13:42:05] <NWells> yeah. current students tend to create their own “social” networks and don’t need admin
[2008-02-12 13:42:12] <Aaron> i mean seem
[2008-02-12 13:42:17] <cyberchuckTX> [ aaron ] harder to sell management on *current* students IMHO.
[2008-02-12 13:42:23] <TheQuicksilver> Aaron: With what goal in mind?
[2008-02-12 13:42:40] <Aaron> for example:
[2008-02-12 13:42:58] <Aaron> if a student group posts a podcast to their FB group
[2008-02-12 13:43:02] <TheQuicksilver> My next question would be, are we hurting ourselves by NOT addressing current students, students that eventually will be alumni, and potential money sources?
[2008-02-12 13:43:16] |<– mcstevem has left irc.freenode.net (“ChatZilla 0.9.80 [Firefox 2.0.0.11/2007112718]“)
[2008-02-12 13:43:19] <NWells> good question
[2008-02-12 13:43:21] <Aaron> another student may be unfamiliar with that group’s work and only discover it because of our FB page
[2008-02-12 13:43:37] <TheQuicksilver> Yes
[2008-02-12 13:43:46] <TheQuicksilver> Good example of the “networking” aspect.
[2008-02-12 13:43:50] <Aaron> i think in general current students are not the target of our web efforts, to our detriment
[2008-02-12 13:44:24] <TheQuicksilver> It seems like we are running to play catch up a little.
[2008-02-12 13:44:25] <Aaron> admin tends to focus on alums and prospies for financial reasons
[2008-02-12 13:44:33] <TheQuicksilver> Yes
[2008-02-12 13:44:44] <TheQuicksilver> Hit the immediate areas that show success.
[2008-02-12 13:44:54] <Aaron> which makes sense, but we can do more
[2008-02-12 13:45:04] <TheQuicksilver> Current students would take time to measure how well it works, so it’s put off.
[2008-02-12 13:45:23] <TheQuicksilver> Do you think that’s just a matter of gearing some FB pages to current classes?
[2008-02-12 13:45:26] <theTownBarber> but current students are the easiest to access
[2008-02-12 13:45:29] <cyberchuckTX> In our iTunesU realm, the students actually starting doing videos and posting them on youtube.
[2008-02-12 13:45:31] <TheQuicksilver> Or is there something bigger to be done
[2008-02-12 13:45:33] <TheQuicksilver> Like Ning?
[2008-02-12 13:45:34] <theTownBarber> they are on campus (for the most part)
[2008-02-12 13:45:35] <cyberchuckTX> that got our administration’s attention.
[2008-02-12 13:45:47] <cyberchuckTX> which is why we’re getting iTunesU set up.
[2008-02-12 13:46:00] <NWells> i’ve seen a few schools with portals that act as social networks for current students
[2008-02-12 13:46:01] <TheQuicksilver> (15 minutes left in current timeslot. We can hang longer if needed though, obviously)
[2008-02-12 13:46:10] <NWells> for us, a medical school, blackboard kind of does that
[2008-02-12 13:46:15] <cyberchuckTX> we’re taking the position of providing the infrastructure (logins, etc.) and letting the students do the production.
[2008-02-12 13:46:26] <cyberchuckTX> with *some* workflow inserted (we’re still working on this part).
[2008-02-12 13:46:49] <Aaron> chuck: will the admin be allowed to axe inappropriate content?
[2008-02-12 13:46:57] <cyberchuckTX> I am really looking forward to meeting the students who put this together.
[2008-02-12 13:46:58] <Aaron> or “inappropriate” content?
[2008-02-12 13:47:27] <cyberchuckTX> as to whether the admin can axe content: the *intent* is to move the “locus of control” out of IT and into the hands of the faculty
[2008-02-12 13:47:31] <theTownBarber> aaron: good question. That is waht our admins would be scared of
[2008-02-12 13:47:37] <TheQuicksilver> (Sorry, I must step out for just a couple minutes, I will brb)
[2008-02-12 13:47:46] <cyberchuckTX> so we’ll provide the means for workflow, but will not be making the decision(s) as to what is “appropriate”.
[2008-02-12 13:47:47] <Aaron> how so chuck?
[2008-02-12 13:48:05] <Aaron> i see, so faculty will have final sya?
[2008-02-12 13:48:09] <Aaron> i mean say
[2008-02-12 13:48:18] <cyberchuckTX> well, in the case of iTunesU (specific example), the OSX server has “Podcast Producer” built-in.
[2008-02-12 13:48:21] <cyberchuckTX> which has workflow.
[2008-02-12 13:48:37] <cyberchuckTX> the faculty & school admins decide who makes the decisions as to content.
[2008-02-12 13:48:45] <cyberchuckTX> and we provide the tools to let them make the choices.
[2008-02-12 13:49:14] <cyberchuckTX> again, IT will only provide the “plumbing”. Others will provide the content and “turn on the spigot” (or not).
[2008-02-12 13:49:27] <cyberchuckTX> (we like the plumber analogy )
[2008-02-12 13:49:29] <Aaron> i’m wondering if this is the holdup at uchicago
[2008-02-12 13:49:41] <Aaron> politics of who decides what’s posted
[2008-02-12 13:49:45] <theTownBarber> chuck: i like the analogy
[2008-02-12 13:49:58] <theTownBarber> we have admins that want IT to do the content as well
[2008-02-12 13:50:04] <cyberchuckTX> also understand that, being in the health care domain (dentistry or medicine) we can always utilize HIPAA
[2008-02-12 13:50:06] <TheQuicksilver> (back)
[2008-02-12 13:50:08] <theTownBarber> can’t convince them that wou;d be good
[2008-02-12 13:50:14] <cyberchuckTX> which is very specific about privacy issues. And has legal teeth.
[2008-02-12 13:50:29] <theTownBarber> oops, wouldn’t be good
[2008-02-12 13:50:53] <cyberchuckTX> [ townbarber ] IT can *produce* the content. Someone *else* decides whether given content can be posted / is appropriate
[2008-02-12 13:51:03] <cyberchuckTX> which of course includes IP (Intellectual Property).
[2008-02-12 13:51:32] <TheQuicksilver> Has anyone just flat out designed their own tools to help network students? I know someone earlier mentioned something like that.
[2008-02-12 13:51:55] <NWells> coming up with the wonderful marketing ideas is easy for us. convincing the admin to move into this century is a nightmare
[2008-02-12 13:52:14] <NWells> so that is our hold up
[2008-02-12 13:52:23] <TheQuicksilver> NWells: Ditto
[2008-02-12 13:52:43] <theTownBarber> nwells: i agree, paper still rules the roost
[2008-02-12 13:53:07] <TheQuicksilver> There is fear of new technology, and new work.
[2008-02-12 13:53:17] <–| xyzzy123 has left #uwebd
[2008-02-12 13:53:23] <theTownBarber> some fear the technology is taking their work
[2008-02-12 13:53:31] <TheQuicksilver> As was being mentioned, people expect IT or someone like that to take care of the content.
[2008-02-12 13:53:36] <theTownBarber> that has been our battle
[2008-02-12 13:53:38] <Aaron> i wish it would take my work
[2008-02-12 13:53:56] <theTownBarber> aaron: you need an easy button…
[2008-02-12 13:54:05] <NWells> i’m the content person for our web operation
[2008-02-12 13:54:07] <Aaron> indeed
[2008-02-12 13:54:21] <NWells> we struggle with our marketing/it depts seeing eye to eye
[2008-02-12 13:54:30] <TheQuicksilver> Okay, let me step in before 2:00 hits us, then we can continue.
[2008-02-12 13:54:42] <NWells> that also holds up our social networking efforts
[2008-02-12 13:54:51] <TheQuicksilver> I think we could benefit from more focused discussions on this at a later time.
[2008-02-12 13:55:00] <theTownBarber> agree
[2008-02-12 13:55:01] <TheQuicksilver> Focusing on individual tools, like Facebook
[2008-02-12 13:55:11] <TheQuicksilver> Rather than the broad approach we took today
[2008-02-12 13:55:21] <Aaron> makes sense
[2008-02-12 13:55:31] <jljohnstone> ditto
[2008-02-12 13:55:32] <TheQuicksilver> That would allow us to grind in a little better.
[2008-02-12 13:55:43] <bradjward> sounds good
[2008-02-12 13:55:44] <NWells> i read an article recenlty that said FB is experiencing slower growth as are all social networking sites
[2008-02-12 13:55:56] <NWells> i would love to hear thoughts on how that affects us moving forward
[2008-02-12 13:56:06] <TheQuicksilver> Obviously, everyone is welcome to stay and keep talking, but I wanted to thank everyone, in case people had to leave at the end of the hour
[2008-02-12 13:56:22] <Aaron> thanks folks… good to “meet” you all
[2008-02-12 13:56:24] <bradjward> 2007 was the year of social network explosion, 2008 will be a year of refining your friend lists and engaging in meaningful conversation <– my official stance
[2008-02-12 13:56:32] <TheQuicksilver> I will set up a poll within the day probably to select the topic in two weeks
[2008-02-12 13:56:39] <–| Aaron has left #uwebd
[2008-02-12 13:56:45] –>| FGCUdave (i=cfcbd402@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-d004bb99f0ff8e21) has joined #uwebd
[2008-02-12 13:56:52] <TheQuicksilver> And the transcript will be available shortly